Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 76
capitalize on the traditional “giving” season. Ken obviously was not the most submissive,
yielding devotee another conflict he had suppressed while in ISKCON was the constant
focus on spiritual shortcomings, not spiritual progress. Ken struggled with his tendency to
“see the glass as half-full” while ISKCON “saw the glass as half-empty.” Ken's insight was
related to Lifton's theory on the demand for purity. The general tone of the conversation
continued to vacillate between serious talk (usually involving self-disclosure) and humorous
mocking of the ISKCON movement and its doctrine.
Dara's style: My impressions II. Dara's style with Ken remained very attentive, even
vigilant, and confrontational. I wondered if she was really that much more confrontational
than the other deprogrammers, or if the discomfort I perceived in Ken was due to the fact
that Dara was an assertive woman. I also wondered if, to some extent, Ken's intermittent
defensiveness was in part an oppositional reaction to Dara's feminine (and assertive)
presence. Ken had demonstrated overt discomfort with women, and his conflicted and
patriarchal view of women was known to the deprogrammers. And to at least some degree
Ken's conflict with women seemed to have existed prior to his involvement with ISKCON.
Dara's presence might have made Ken's conflicts more salient I had been told by Sandy
that this was part of the deprogrammers' intent. Now Dara noticed that Ken looked cold,
and she asked him if he was comfortable, but I was not sure if it was the weather that made
Ken appear uncomfortable. Then Dara noticed Ken glancing at his watch, and she wondered
aloud about that (was Ken growing impatient with her?). Were both Dara and Ken being
overly defensive now, or had Dara intuited a real unspoken need in Ken? Covertly, Ken
responded nervously, as though Dara had indeed been reacting to some sense of
impatience on his part but overtly he simply noted that he was hungry (he had not eaten
yet.). I volunteered to make him a mushroom pizza, and left for the kitchen.
Returning to Lifton. Risa must have awakened a short while before, and she was as usual
busying herself in the kitchen. Curt, Sandy, and Ken then returned to reading and
discussing Lifton's theories they still had not completed the section on the demand for
purity. The discussion moved bark to the issue of floating. Sandy talked about the power of
belief (e.g., voodoo deaths), which sparked brief discussions of superstition and the
relationship between hypnosis and chanting. The conversation appeared to concentrate on
explaining some of the specific aspects of Ken's indoctrination and experiences while in
ISKCON. As they returned to Lifton and a discussion of the manipulation of guilt, the talk
seemed to become dominated by the deprogrammers. Sandy and Dara continued to
challenge Ken's emotional constriction, and his continued employment of Krishna
terminology. Dara disclosed how she was now able to appreciate variety and beauty,
because she was no longer automatically classifying the world on a “closeness to Krishna”
continuum. She was no longer concerned with the “spirits of trees”, for example she just
experienced the tree‟s beauty. Dara and Sandy then asked Ken how he would prove the
existence of spirits in nonmaterial objects and animals, and how he might establish the
existence of reincarnation.
I came back out, mushroom pizza in hand. Ken devoured the pizza in just a few big bites,
remarking how famished he was, and then immediately requested another. I went back to
the kitchen and returned shortly with another pizza.
Ken, Greg, Sandy and Dara continued studying Lifton. Curt and Risa had left to find an open
bank, in order to take care of the final payment of the deprogramming fee. Payment was in
cash and Curt in turn had to reimburse the other members of the deprogramming team.
Curt suggested that he accompany Risa after she expressed concern about carrying that
large an amount of cash by herself. Before he left, I overheard him in the kitchen, talking to
Risa and Brian about completing plans for rehab in Iowa. The deprogramming was clearly
winding down, coming to a conclusion. As the afternoon drew to a close it became colder
and windier outside. There was talk of going back indoors, but everyone seemed hesitant.

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 77
Curt confronts me. At about 5:00 p.m., the Epsteins began to arrive home, and the
deprogramming began to move back upstairs. As we started cleaning the poolside up, Mrs.
Epstein called out to me to come in. My wife and daughter had arrived with some release
form I had forgotten to bring back the last time I went home. I began to busy myself
collecting signatures on the forms and taking care of other necessary paperwork. On the
television, the Epstein kids, the security team, and my family were watching “Superman” on
a cable movie network. Curt returned briefly, and then left. When he returned at around
6:00 p.m. he pulled me aside and complained to me about some of my behavior (both real
and imagined). I felt hurt and puzzled. Some of Curt's complaints seemed unwarranted and
confused. He suggested that I pay Risa for the extra food that was consumed as a result of
my “unplanned presence.” He noted to me that the deprogramming was finished and that
early the next morning, he and Ken would be flying to Iowa.
I asked him what was going on between us. He replied that he wanted me to leave, and
cited two specific examples of my objectionable behavior. One of these transgressions was
real. At one point during the past two days, I advised Beth to avoid being around Ken when
she was dressed in highly revealing shorts. It was not my place to make such a suggestion,
and Beth had apparently complained about it to her parents, who then complained to Curt.
However, I was unjustly blamed for a mishap that occurred the day before. Someone had
apparently placed a bottle of soda in the Epsteins' freezer in order to chill it quickly, and
then forgotten about it. Of course, it eventually exploded in the freezer and made quite a
mess. I briefly objected to this latter example, but then quickly surmised that I would get
nowhere defending myself with Curt. He wanted me out. I felt rather stuck. I wanted to
stay until the very end, although I also figured the additional information I would obtain for
my study would be negligible. I mentioned my concern about leaving early to Curt but by
this point his mind was made up. I asked if I could finish out the day, and he agreed that I
could stay until the evening. My wife and daughter left, and I went upstairs to present and
explain the forms my wife had brought over. I then returned downstairs just after 6:00 p.m.
to join everyone for dinner. I gave Risa some money to cover my end of the food bill.
Dinner was informal, with the conversation focused on the trip to Iowa early next morning.
At 7:30, I said my farewells and left.
Deprogramming Postscript
In the years since Ken Butler's deprogramming, I have learned the following about the
participants:
Curt Miller continues to work as one of a small number of highly experienced, full-time
deprogrammers. His hectic and unpredictable work schedule has resulted in several deep
disappointments in his personal life.
Sandy no longer works with Curt, and appears to have left the deprogramming field
altogether to concentrate on raising his family.
For several years, Dara continued to work as a university secretary with occasional
involvements in deprogrammings. She then decided to have a child, and is currently a
single, working parent raising her child. To the best of my knowledge, she is no longer
involved with deprogramming.
The last I heard from Brian, he had “graduated” from working security and was involved
part-time as an independent deprogrammer. He was also involved part-time in several
media-related projects. To the best of my knowledge, he continues to work on occasion with
Curt and several other well-known deprogrammers and exit-counselors.
Greg Stern completed his undergraduate education and is currently employed as an
advertising salesman and executive. He has built a studio in his home where he once again
devotes a great deal of time to his life-long dream of composing music. He is no longer