Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 74
discussed this manipulation of guilt Ken was incredulous once again: “I find it hard to
believe I was caught up in this.” Dara, Greg, and Ken then talked about the process of
reentry. Dara noted that for her it was gradual. For example, she did not eat meat until 6
months later. Greg, however, noted that he had asked for a hamburger right away. There
was some kidding of Greg for having been “ravenous” for meat afterwards. I noted to
myself how subtly both possibilities were thus presented to Ken.
Ken predicted that re-entry would be more gradual for him. His prediction would later come
true. He reflected on his eating patterns during the deprogramming. On the first day, he ate
only fruit on the second day he ate spaghetti with onion and garlic on the third day he ate
bread even though “it was made by karmis.” Greg asked Ken if the onions and garlic acted
as an aphrodisiac, the way ISKCON had predicted. Ken laughed, “No,” and he admitted how
good last nights mushroom pizza had tasted. They talked about vegetarianism. Greg
reported a claim by some researchers that the amount of nutrition one gets from a
vegetarian diet is in part dependent on the culture. If you are accustomed to a vegetarian
diet, you can get the nutrition. If these diets are not customary, your body will take some
time to get used to the switch from meat to vegetables.
I wrote in my notes that the talk continued to seem balanced somewhat evenly between
deprogrammer and deprogrammee. They talked about ISKCON's demand for obedience,
and the child-like reinforcers that are used (e.g., gurus giving out cookies to “good”
devotees, or the threat that Krishna will “kick you” if you misbehave).
Dara's style: My impressions 1. With Dara's arrival, the deprogramming had taken a
somewhat different emotional tone. While Curt, Sandy, and Greg had been confrontational
at times, they never became personally confrontational. Ken was now more clearly “bonded”
with the deprogrammers (including, if only by association, Dara), so he was probably more
sensitive to disapproving remarks. Dara continued to confront Ken when he responded to
questions with Krishna terminology, even if he was critical of ISKCON. She interpreted Ken's
use of ISKCON terminology as vestiges of brainwashing. Interestingly, Greg (who in some
ways was emotionally closest to Ken) joined in the confrontation, reminding Ken of how he
had only the night before used the Krishna term “agitawd” to describe sexual arousal Ken
became defensive again, denying that his use of Krishna terminology indicated lingering
brainwashing. He felt expunged of any signs or symptoms of mind control. Changing the
topic, Ken talked about how ISKCON kept him from getting close to people. “Even if they
were really nice, I would think they were in maya ...I would have to keep my distance. Yet
there are a lot of devotees in the movement that I can't stand.” They discussed how
ISKCON “understanding” was superficial. A devotee might mimic empathy, “It‟s OK, I
understand. You were just overcome by the mode of passion.” Ken noted how this was not
real understanding at all.
Dara and Ken. The discourse returned to how historical facts and current realities do not
confirm ISKCON doctrine and predictions. Ken gave examples of instances in which his
questions about history were viewed negatively by his superiors. Once, for example, he
asked his teachers how today's primitive culture of India could have developed from the
advanced Hindu-based civilization of 5,000 years ago. Dara interrupted Ken's story: “They
must have hated you for asking questions like that. What a great question!” Ken continued.
They answered by telling him to stop being on a mental platform. He was told to “stop
trying to challenge” his guru. Dara talked about the ISKCON belief that Christ went to India
and came under the influence of Krishnas, which is supposed to explain Christ's status as a
pure devotee (on par with Prabhupada). Critics of ISKCON believe the elevation of Christ to
“pure devotee” status is merely a convenience to make the Hare Krishna movement more
palatable to Western, Christian culture. ISKCON uses the “Aquarian Gospel” to support this
contention. However, Dara quoted a passage from the “Aquarian Gospel” in which Christ is
supposed to have called Krishna worshippers “bodies [people] without spirit ..temples

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 75
without altars.” The discussion of the notion that Christ was a pure devotee led to a
consideration of Krishna history in general. For example, devotees are taught that people
were once 18 feet tall, yet no 18 foot tall skeletons have ever been found. They read
passages from books on Indian history that contradicted what the Gita states. The
deprogrammers seemed to be underscoring the message that the Gita cannot be taken
literally. Dara began to point out additional discrepancies between Prabhupaba's Gita and
other translations. The one that seemed to get the most reaction from Ken was a passage in
the ISKCON. Gita that states Krishna will come down and annihilate shown the other
Gitas say he will take away their sins. That this discrepancy bothered Ken the most made
sense to me. He had consistently been most disturbed either by indications of the
potentially violent nature of ISKCON or their violation of Ken's own basic feelings about
parent-child bonding. At this point, Ken underscored that he now considered the philosophy
to be bogus. For the first time, Ken asked Dara a personal question: How did she feel as a
woman in ISKCON?
Dara's personal disclosures gave way to a more general discussion of male-female issues in
ISKCON. Ken then described how he would get more agitated (again, he used the Krishna
term for sexual arousal) by devotees in saris than girls in bikinis when he would do
sankirtan at Jones Reach. Curt, who had apparently made his first appearance in the
Epstein kitchen shortly after noon, came outside briefly to say hello and listen in on some of
the conversation. He interposed himself into the talk by confronting Ken on his continued
use of the word “agitated” when he meant “aroused.” Again, Ken did not know what to do
with this confrontation. I believe the intention of these continuing confrontations was to
demonstrate the subtlety and pervasiveness of ISKCON programming, but Ken continued to
feel personally berated. The conversation then veered toward gossip as Dara shared stories
about a few corrupt upper-level devotees and brahmacaris they both knew. They then
talked about sanitation in ISKCON. At this point, Ken was employing ISKCON doctrine,
which he spontaneously critiqued as he cited it. The talk remained fairly equally divided
between Ken and the others.
Reviewing Lifton. Curt got up to head back into the house, signaling a temporary
rescission of control. Sandy, who had been silent for some time, came back into the
conversation and veered it back toward a discussion of Lifton. “The talk became highly
technical at this point. For example, Dara explained Lifton's concept of “constriction of
language” by pointing out that the Krishnas categorize all emotions and doubts as part of
“Maya” (the material world, which is demonic). Everything is collapsed this way. The answer
to Maya is always the same: chant Hare Krishna. She charted this out: how the internal
experience of emotions (fear, doubt, anger, lust, jealousy, spite) normally leads to a variety
of possible external actions (e.g., run or confront seek answers, express or suppress an
affect). In the Krishnas, however, everything is collapsed. Emotions and doubts are replaced
by the internal experience of being in maya, which in turn collapses all external actions
(responses) to only one possibility, chanting.
As the team went through Lifton, Ken seemed to return to the mannerisms and thought-
patterns I saw after the “snap” on the second day. He related how the big moment for him
was hearing Greg Stern blaspheme Prabhupada (the team, especially Sandy following the
“snap”, tended to refer to Prabhupada as “Papa Fraud”) and discovering that Greg did not
“die on the spot.” Until then, he said, he could express some of his doubts about the
philosophy and even criticize some of the gurus, but he could not renounce “the Number
One man” or “the whole rotten belief system” as he put it. The demand for purity seemed
present in all the cults, Ken noted. Dara talked at length about life in communist China,
based on reports from a Chinese student friend of hers. The talked about how everything in
ISKCON seems geared toward getting money. Ken described the “Christmas [fund-raising]
Marathon” in which devotees were told to eschew several devotional services in order to