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Family relationships. All of a sudden, Curt stopped Ken's train of thought. He asked Ken
what all this information and what his new thoughts told him about the philosophy. He
seemed to be trying to catch Ken off guard, to “test” him somehow. Ken responded, “It
sucks.” Curt nodded his head and following through asked. “What are the biggest questions
[about the philosophy) you have, or want to discuss?” Ken replied by stating his desire to
know more about how the philosophy affected the child-rearing and the family system.
Right now, he noted, he didn't have much of an opinion on this topic. Curt asked him what
he thought he was deprived of while in ISKCON. Ken quickly listed his primary deprivations:
no heterosexual relationships, privacy, or independence. Sandy, recalling a question Ken
had asked the day before, contrasted this with military service, which does allow the above.
Ken then pointed out that the total subservience, lack of self- expression, and denigration of
the Self were what he disliked most about ISKCON. At this point Curt asked Ken what were
the things he missed most from his father. As Ken looked at him with surprise, Curt
explained that Ken's mother had previously revealed that Mr. Butler was extremely critical
of Ken. Still surprised, Ken admitted this to be true. The conversation grew very subdued,
and very serious. Ken noted with obvious disagreement that his father did not perceive
himself to be very critical. Curt: “Yes, and there are many devotees and gurus who are very
sincere” but that doesn't help with the effect it has on the individual receiving the “good
intentions” of sincere people. “What matters is how you receive it.” At first, I thought Curt
was merely associating Ken's relationship with his guru to that with his father for dramatic
effect and the hope that this critique would be emotionally “imprinted” on Ken.
I was wrong. Curt asked Ken to consider what kind of damaging effect all this criticism may
have had on him as a child. The underlying suggestion now seemed to be that Ken consider
how his relationship with his father might have contributed to his vulnerability to a highly
patriarchal, Eastern cult. Intent listening gave way to sudden admission: “I had a lousy
childhood.” I was impressed by the lack of embarrassment in Ken's voice Curt‟s timing
seemed to be nearly perfect.
Curt revealed a little more of himself in return. “I had a drug problem and there was a
reason behind that. I had an OK childhood, but from age 14 on, I was a mess.” He noted
hopefully that his long history of trouble did not prevent him from changing. Remembering
Ken's previous question regarding child-rearing in ISKCON, Curt returned to the guru kula
(group childcare and elementary education) system, noting how negatively all that criticism
would affect the children.
Curt and Ken continued to discuss the formation of low self-esteem in children, and how a
highly critical and denigrating environment creates poor self-esteem. Ken noted how, as a
devotee, he envied Krishna children for being able to “get on a spiritual plane so early” in
life. Ken seemed agitated here: he talked in a low-key voice, and he looked very absorbed
and attentive yet “on edge.” I wondered if memories of his own background and unhappy
childhood were affecting him. Ken veered the conversation away from this topic and back to
some of his humorous experiences with other devotees and gurus. Curt responded to Ken's
hesitancy (resistance?), and brought the conversation back to child-raising. Ken asked him
to estimate how much love, support and attention a child needs. Curt responded, “Just think
of how much you need and double it.”
Ken's interest in ISKCON child-rearing practices seemed to remind Curt of his videotape on
guru kulas (an investigative report from Texas). He retrieved the videotape from a suitcase,
but before playing the tape, he warned Ken about “floating.” “Now this may have some bit
of an adverse effect on you watching this. What I mean by that is, a lot of times when
somebody is at this stage of a deprogramming, seeing the devotees, hearing the chanting...
may induce what is commonly referred to as a floating state. If that happens, don't worry
about it, we can talk about it.” As he set up the tape, Curt described the rationale behind
the guru kulas, in the context of how the Krishnas manipulate people: They take an the

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 63
problems in our society, which do exist and then they magnify them 10 times, and then
they ascribe them to everybody. So everybody [outside of ISKCONI is unhappy.” Curt then
became philosophical: “if life didn't have its ups and downs (you wouldn't appreciate the
ups].” Ironically, Ken reminded Curt he was often unhappy in the Krishnas.
The third day: Afternoon
Guru kulas on videotape. Curt began the videotape. The documentary first outlined the
history of the guru kulas, their physical plant and underlying philosophy. Then, a devotee
stated to the interviewer that the movement would flourish and do good for America “if we
are not criticized too much.” Curt paused the tape and reacted strongly: “Where do they
come from asking not to be criticized? The President himself wouldn't make that
statement.” Curt continued to play the videotape. Krishna children at the guru kula were
interviewed, and they spoke about how they were forbidden to write to their parents, how
gifts that were sent to them were never received. Even the little children received two cold
showers a day to drive away sexual desires. In the school, there were no outside learning
materials (history books, newspapers, radios, etc.). The teachers were by state standards
unqualified to teach. At one point, a Krishna teacher admitted that, although they do spank
the children, they do not use sticks as had been claimed by several former devotees. But
when the interviewer asked a number of children how they are hit, they all answered “with
a stick.” The Krishnas also denied ever having a parasite problem. A state health official
however, reported numerous cases of ringworm, head lice, and other body parasites. The
announcer talked about how the children at the guru kula only saw their parents two or
three times a year. Several children were then asked if they wanted to go bark to their
mothers. They all said “no.” When they were asked why not, they all gave the same answer,
“because the spiritual master told me not to.” Although their words were clearly rehearsed,
their pained facial reactions were not.
At this point, the tape was stopped. Ken was fighting back tears. Curt asked Ken if he had
ever visited a guru kula or seen this documentary before. Ken replied “no.” But, head hung
low, he then added, “I relate to this.”
Despite Curt's concern that he might “float,” Ken did not retreat back into “Krishna
consciousness.” In fact, he became greatly upset by the obvious emotional pain and longing
the Krishna children were experiencing. Whether or not Curt planned it, the connection for
Ken was there. The guru kula videotape affected Ken deeply. With lowered voice and a very
serious tone, Ken made his feelings clear- “I was psychologically abused.” I was unsure
whether Ken was commenting on his experiences in ISKCON, or as an unhappy child. In the
meanwhile, Curt drew Ken's attention back to the fear in the children's faces.
The videotape of the guru kula was continued. The differences in quality of education were
pointed out. Since, according to ISKCON, girls are born with less native intelligence, they
require less education. Ken continued to look somewhat distraught, but from a distance. He
told Curt that watching this was upsetting him yet he wanted to see more. Curt replayed the
interviews with the motherless children. Everyone listened quietly until Curt again stopped
the tape in order to quote from Krishna doctrine: “We must develop detachment from all
such illusions” (referring to parents). Curt then explained that ISKCON must remove all
outside supports, so that the only place left for the devotee to turn is to ISKCON. Totalistic
groups deprecate the “outside” world in order to make their own noxious milieu appear
superior by comparison. He compared this process to the child who must belittle others to
make himself feel “big.” Ken's anger grew as Curt talked, and he stated with fervor that he
wanted to fight against cults. Sandy settled him down, however. He told him there are ways
to express one's anti-cult sentiments (without becoming the “anti-cult cult”) but that
everyone is an individual, and “the reality is, all you can do is reach out” to convince cultists
and the general public of the dangers of cultism. Curt and Greg then began to set up a