Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 41
how much hope she placed in it. I felt pulled to express confidence in Curt and in the whole
process. We said good-night and I went over to my “bed.”
The Second Day: Morning
Sandy and Ken alone. I had great difficulty sleeping that first night, in part because of my
own excitement and in part because the basement was very musty and I have a mild allergy
to mold in the air. I slept somewhat fitfully, waking up every half hour or so. I tried the
couches, and slept for about one more hour. When I awoke, George was asleep in the couch
across from me. I fell back asleep, but continued to awake repeatedly. Shortly after sunrise,
I gave up and walked back upstairs. It was almost 7:00 a.m. I went into the den and spent
the next hour organizing my notes, and putting number stickers on yesterday's tapes. The
Epsteins bid me hello and good-by in rapid succession as they came downstairs on their way
out to their respective jobs.
I then went upstairs to check on everyone else. It was toward the end of Jim's shift and he
was seated at the top of the stairs, reading a Western novel. After whispering hello, Jim told
me it had been a quiet, uneventful night. I asked him if I could get him anything
downstairs, and he asked for coffee. I poured cups for us both and went back upstairs. Jim
explained to me that the security men took turns, working in four-hour shifts, sitting guard
on the second floor spot just outside Ken's room. Sandy was sleeping on the floor of Ken's
room in his sleeping bag. Curt and Brian were sleeping in Beth‟s room. Beth in turn slept in
what used to be Daniel's room. Beth's bedroom was bigger, and thus was ceded to the
deprogrammers. At 8:34 a.m. Ken woke up. Sandy must have been sleeping lightly, as he
woke up immediately after Ken. I walked into the room. Ken was seated up on his bed, in
his now “usual” spot, and he and Sandy were talking about whether senses are good or bad,
and the irony of an overemphasis on “bad” sensation Sandy: “If I tell you, „don't think about
elephants,‟ what do you think of? ...Cults have to get you into a position where you no
longer look back or your past experience to make a judgment.” He continued, “My past
experiences before I got involved with the movement came from an impure nature ...
[according to the cult] ...so the only reference or framework. I have that is dependable is
the framework from within the guru, the doctrine he gave. So I have to try to get
everything lined up with that doctrine.” In contrast to the previous evening, Ken now
seemed to relate to Sandy”., recounting of his own cult experiences. Ken began relating
more of his own experience, concentrating on the role of guilt. Sandy underscored how that
philosophy is different from the practice, using examples. Ken replied with personal
examples of how he suppressed his doubts. Ken and Sandy talked at length.
Until now, Sandy had yielded to Curt‟s expertise in critiquing ISKCON. This morning,
however, his own knowledge of the Krishnas became more obvious as he related his
experiences in his shepherding cult to some of what Ken had disclosed, as well as to stories
from other former Krishnas. Ken appeared a bit uncomfortable now. Sandy asked him what
was wrong. As it turned out Ken wanted to use the bathroom. Sandy said, “Of course, go
ahead,” and Ken went to the bathroom next to his room, while Sandy waited and listened
carefully right outside the door. To the best of anyone's knowledge, Ken had not gotten up
to chant his rounds, and was not starting to do so now. Today, however, nobody would
comment on this change in Ken's behavior.
When Ken returned, he and Sandy continued talking. It was now 10:00 am., and with the
exception of Jim, Sandy, Ken, and myself, everyone else remained asleep. Sandy began to
confront Ken a little he seemed to be trying to push an overt denouncement of
Prabhupada. Ken would not give in so easily, and he met Sandy's criticisms of the cult‟s
doctrines with a stance of “this is what Prabhupada says, now you disprove it.” The two
entered into a long discussion of the historical accuracy of the Bible, and the talk remained
very cordial and low-key. From biblical accuracy, Ken and Sandy veered off into a discussion
how much hope she placed in it. I felt pulled to express confidence in Curt and in the whole
process. We said good-night and I went over to my “bed.”
The Second Day: Morning
Sandy and Ken alone. I had great difficulty sleeping that first night, in part because of my
own excitement and in part because the basement was very musty and I have a mild allergy
to mold in the air. I slept somewhat fitfully, waking up every half hour or so. I tried the
couches, and slept for about one more hour. When I awoke, George was asleep in the couch
across from me. I fell back asleep, but continued to awake repeatedly. Shortly after sunrise,
I gave up and walked back upstairs. It was almost 7:00 a.m. I went into the den and spent
the next hour organizing my notes, and putting number stickers on yesterday's tapes. The
Epsteins bid me hello and good-by in rapid succession as they came downstairs on their way
out to their respective jobs.
I then went upstairs to check on everyone else. It was toward the end of Jim's shift and he
was seated at the top of the stairs, reading a Western novel. After whispering hello, Jim told
me it had been a quiet, uneventful night. I asked him if I could get him anything
downstairs, and he asked for coffee. I poured cups for us both and went back upstairs. Jim
explained to me that the security men took turns, working in four-hour shifts, sitting guard
on the second floor spot just outside Ken's room. Sandy was sleeping on the floor of Ken's
room in his sleeping bag. Curt and Brian were sleeping in Beth‟s room. Beth in turn slept in
what used to be Daniel's room. Beth's bedroom was bigger, and thus was ceded to the
deprogrammers. At 8:34 a.m. Ken woke up. Sandy must have been sleeping lightly, as he
woke up immediately after Ken. I walked into the room. Ken was seated up on his bed, in
his now “usual” spot, and he and Sandy were talking about whether senses are good or bad,
and the irony of an overemphasis on “bad” sensation Sandy: “If I tell you, „don't think about
elephants,‟ what do you think of? ...Cults have to get you into a position where you no
longer look back or your past experience to make a judgment.” He continued, “My past
experiences before I got involved with the movement came from an impure nature ...
[according to the cult] ...so the only reference or framework. I have that is dependable is
the framework from within the guru, the doctrine he gave. So I have to try to get
everything lined up with that doctrine.” In contrast to the previous evening, Ken now
seemed to relate to Sandy”., recounting of his own cult experiences. Ken began relating
more of his own experience, concentrating on the role of guilt. Sandy underscored how that
philosophy is different from the practice, using examples. Ken replied with personal
examples of how he suppressed his doubts. Ken and Sandy talked at length.
Until now, Sandy had yielded to Curt‟s expertise in critiquing ISKCON. This morning,
however, his own knowledge of the Krishnas became more obvious as he related his
experiences in his shepherding cult to some of what Ken had disclosed, as well as to stories
from other former Krishnas. Ken appeared a bit uncomfortable now. Sandy asked him what
was wrong. As it turned out Ken wanted to use the bathroom. Sandy said, “Of course, go
ahead,” and Ken went to the bathroom next to his room, while Sandy waited and listened
carefully right outside the door. To the best of anyone's knowledge, Ken had not gotten up
to chant his rounds, and was not starting to do so now. Today, however, nobody would
comment on this change in Ken's behavior.
When Ken returned, he and Sandy continued talking. It was now 10:00 am., and with the
exception of Jim, Sandy, Ken, and myself, everyone else remained asleep. Sandy began to
confront Ken a little he seemed to be trying to push an overt denouncement of
Prabhupada. Ken would not give in so easily, and he met Sandy's criticisms of the cult‟s
doctrines with a stance of “this is what Prabhupada says, now you disprove it.” The two
entered into a long discussion of the historical accuracy of the Bible, and the talk remained
very cordial and low-key. From biblical accuracy, Ken and Sandy veered off into a discussion
