Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 75
without altars.” The discussion of the notion that Christ was a pure devotee led to a
consideration of Krishna history in general. For example, devotees are taught that people
were once 18 feet tall, yet no 18 foot tall skeletons have ever been found. They read
passages from books on Indian history that contradicted what the Gita states. The
deprogrammers seemed to be underscoring the message that the Gita cannot be taken
literally. Dara began to point out additional discrepancies between Prabhupaba's Gita and
other translations. The one that seemed to get the most reaction from Ken was a passage in
the ISKCON. Gita that states Krishna will come down and annihilate shown the other
Gitas say he will take away their sins. That this discrepancy bothered Ken the most made
sense to me. He had consistently been most disturbed either by indications of the
potentially violent nature of ISKCON or their violation of Ken's own basic feelings about
parent-child bonding. At this point, Ken underscored that he now considered the philosophy
to be bogus. For the first time, Ken asked Dara a personal question: How did she feel as a
woman in ISKCON?
Dara's personal disclosures gave way to a more general discussion of male-female issues in
ISKCON. Ken then described how he would get more agitated (again, he used the Krishna
term for sexual arousal) by devotees in saris than girls in bikinis when he would do
sankirtan at Jones Reach. Curt, who had apparently made his first appearance in the
Epstein kitchen shortly after noon, came outside briefly to say hello and listen in on some of
the conversation. He interposed himself into the talk by confronting Ken on his continued
use of the word “agitated” when he meant “aroused.” Again, Ken did not know what to do
with this confrontation. I believe the intention of these continuing confrontations was to
demonstrate the subtlety and pervasiveness of ISKCON programming, but Ken continued to
feel personally berated. The conversation then veered toward gossip as Dara shared stories
about a few corrupt upper-level devotees and brahmacaris they both knew. They then
talked about sanitation in ISKCON. At this point, Ken was employing ISKCON doctrine,
which he spontaneously critiqued as he cited it. The talk remained fairly equally divided
between Ken and the others.
Reviewing Lifton. Curt got up to head back into the house, signaling a temporary
rescission of control. Sandy, who had been silent for some time, came back into the
conversation and veered it back toward a discussion of Lifton. “The talk became highly
technical at this point. For example, Dara explained Lifton's concept of “constriction of
language” by pointing out that the Krishnas categorize all emotions and doubts as part of
“Maya” (the material world, which is demonic). Everything is collapsed this way. The answer
to Maya is always the same: chant Hare Krishna. She charted this out: how the internal
experience of emotions (fear, doubt, anger, lust, jealousy, spite) normally leads to a variety
of possible external actions (e.g., run or confront seek answers, express or suppress an
affect). In the Krishnas, however, everything is collapsed. Emotions and doubts are replaced
by the internal experience of being in maya, which in turn collapses all external actions
(responses) to only one possibility, chanting.
As the team went through Lifton, Ken seemed to return to the mannerisms and thought-
patterns I saw after the “snap” on the second day. He related how the big moment for him
was hearing Greg Stern blaspheme Prabhupada (the team, especially Sandy following the
“snap”, tended to refer to Prabhupada as “Papa Fraud”) and discovering that Greg did not
“die on the spot.” Until then, he said, he could express some of his doubts about the
philosophy and even criticize some of the gurus, but he could not renounce “the Number
One man” or “the whole rotten belief system” as he put it. The demand for purity seemed
present in all the cults, Ken noted. Dara talked at length about life in communist China,
based on reports from a Chinese student friend of hers. The talked about how everything in
ISKCON seems geared toward getting money. Ken described the “Christmas [fund-raising]
Marathon” in which devotees were told to eschew several devotional services in order to
without altars.” The discussion of the notion that Christ was a pure devotee led to a
consideration of Krishna history in general. For example, devotees are taught that people
were once 18 feet tall, yet no 18 foot tall skeletons have ever been found. They read
passages from books on Indian history that contradicted what the Gita states. The
deprogrammers seemed to be underscoring the message that the Gita cannot be taken
literally. Dara began to point out additional discrepancies between Prabhupaba's Gita and
other translations. The one that seemed to get the most reaction from Ken was a passage in
the ISKCON. Gita that states Krishna will come down and annihilate shown the other
Gitas say he will take away their sins. That this discrepancy bothered Ken the most made
sense to me. He had consistently been most disturbed either by indications of the
potentially violent nature of ISKCON or their violation of Ken's own basic feelings about
parent-child bonding. At this point, Ken underscored that he now considered the philosophy
to be bogus. For the first time, Ken asked Dara a personal question: How did she feel as a
woman in ISKCON?
Dara's personal disclosures gave way to a more general discussion of male-female issues in
ISKCON. Ken then described how he would get more agitated (again, he used the Krishna
term for sexual arousal) by devotees in saris than girls in bikinis when he would do
sankirtan at Jones Reach. Curt, who had apparently made his first appearance in the
Epstein kitchen shortly after noon, came outside briefly to say hello and listen in on some of
the conversation. He interposed himself into the talk by confronting Ken on his continued
use of the word “agitated” when he meant “aroused.” Again, Ken did not know what to do
with this confrontation. I believe the intention of these continuing confrontations was to
demonstrate the subtlety and pervasiveness of ISKCON programming, but Ken continued to
feel personally berated. The conversation then veered toward gossip as Dara shared stories
about a few corrupt upper-level devotees and brahmacaris they both knew. They then
talked about sanitation in ISKCON. At this point, Ken was employing ISKCON doctrine,
which he spontaneously critiqued as he cited it. The talk remained fairly equally divided
between Ken and the others.
Reviewing Lifton. Curt got up to head back into the house, signaling a temporary
rescission of control. Sandy, who had been silent for some time, came back into the
conversation and veered it back toward a discussion of Lifton. “The talk became highly
technical at this point. For example, Dara explained Lifton's concept of “constriction of
language” by pointing out that the Krishnas categorize all emotions and doubts as part of
“Maya” (the material world, which is demonic). Everything is collapsed this way. The answer
to Maya is always the same: chant Hare Krishna. She charted this out: how the internal
experience of emotions (fear, doubt, anger, lust, jealousy, spite) normally leads to a variety
of possible external actions (e.g., run or confront seek answers, express or suppress an
affect). In the Krishnas, however, everything is collapsed. Emotions and doubts are replaced
by the internal experience of being in maya, which in turn collapses all external actions
(responses) to only one possibility, chanting.
As the team went through Lifton, Ken seemed to return to the mannerisms and thought-
patterns I saw after the “snap” on the second day. He related how the big moment for him
was hearing Greg Stern blaspheme Prabhupada (the team, especially Sandy following the
“snap”, tended to refer to Prabhupada as “Papa Fraud”) and discovering that Greg did not
“die on the spot.” Until then, he said, he could express some of his doubts about the
philosophy and even criticize some of the gurus, but he could not renounce “the Number
One man” or “the whole rotten belief system” as he put it. The demand for purity seemed
present in all the cults, Ken noted. Dara talked at length about life in communist China,
based on reports from a Chinese student friend of hers. The talked about how everything in
ISKCON seems geared toward getting money. Ken described the “Christmas [fund-raising]
Marathon” in which devotees were told to eschew several devotional services in order to
