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videotape of two local talk shows. The first one was an interview with Daniel Epstein, the
second was the show on which I met Greg Stern. Greg told Ken what to watch out for in our
show: the lay member who said she was Jewish when in fact she was a Krishna, and the
fund-raising the Krishnas did in the studio lobby, in full view of the “No Soliciting” signs.
They then began to talk about “rehab” (Unbound, the Iowa rehabilitation center for recently
deprogrammed cultists). Curt explained rehab, and tried to answer Ken's questions. He then
stated very matter-of- factly that whether Ken went to rehab or not would be his choice.
Greg, however, felt strongly about rehab. “Without it,” he said, “I don't think I would have
made a nice smooth transition back into society.” Curt continued with a fairly detailed
description of rehab (the workshops offered, the books available), emphasizing the
voluntary nature of Unbound. “They won't take you if you don't go voluntary. There are no
guards looking over your shoulder.” Curt then noted that there were other options, not just
formal rehab, and that they would eventually discuss those other options in greater detail.
Curt not, for example, that a former Krishna whom Ken knew in the New York temple was
now in school studying to be a nurse. She would be available for continued support. As Curt
continued to give a detailed description of rehab and its programs, the conversation became
decidedly lopsided (the deprogrammers were doing most of the talking) for the first time in
many hours. They then returned to the videotape of Daniel.
Daniel and the mothers. In the videotape, the Krishna representative criticized Daniel for
joining ISKCON “for the wrong reasons.” Greg, briefly interrupting the tape, recalled that a
female devotee he had never met once told the press that he left because he could not
maintain his vow of celibacy, a falsehood that really infuriated him. At this point, Daniel's
mother (Ellen Epstein) came home from work. She had never met Ken, and they exchanged
greetings. Ken joked that the Epsteins' “lovely home” was a far cry from “the wood cabin in
the woods I was expecting.” Smiling, Ellen told Ken how, four years ago, she had promised
Ken's mother use of the Epstein house for Ken's deprogramming. Ellen's comment seemed
to awe Ken. The amount of patience and preparation that went into his deprogramming (I
remember thinking it was like saving for college tuition.) did not seem lost on Ken. Turning
to his mother, he exclaimed: “Wow, you must have been saving your pennies!” Risa replied
quickly: “You better believe it ...That's why I don't have a color TV.” Still awed, Ken shook
his head in disbelief. “That's why you didn't go on vacations, huh?” There was a brief pause
as Ken considered this new information, and then he quickly quipped. “You should have just
gone out and done sankirtan for a couple of days” (to raise enough funds for the
deprogramming). Uproarious laughter flowed throughout the kitchen and den. Ken then
returned to the tape, which played uninterrupted from this point to its end.
The videotape seemed more a time filler than a genuine informational tool. Ken appeared to
be resting as he casually watched it, with his feet propped up on the coffee table. The
reprieve was short-lived. Following the tape, the deprogrammers and Ken got into a
discussion about who will eventually wind up taking over ISKCON now that Prabhupada is
dead. In so doing, they likened ISKCON to the Mafia after a godfather has died. They
discussed some of the stories about cults smuggling large amounts of drugs and money into
and out of the country. At around this point, Daniel Epstein walked in, very unobtrusively,
followed by Daniel's younger brother Raymond shortly thereafter. By now, Ken had returned
to talking at least 50% of the time, as he continued to relate more of his personal
experiences. But the conversation had split into two, with Ken talking to Sandy and Daniel
about sankirtan and fund-raising in general (in various organizations), while Greg talked to
Curt, Risa, and me. Sandy listened as Ken continued to compare ISKCON to the Mafia.
Daniel, who had primarily been listening, asked Ken and Sandy .where are you guys [in the
deprogramming process]?” Ken explained that he had been talking about proselytizing for
ISKCON, how he got involved, and how he became convinced that he should leave ISKCON.
Also, Greg added, they had been and would continue talking about mind control. Curt tried
to refocus the conversation. He kiddingly asked Greg where he wanted to go next [in the

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 65
deprogramming], then quickly retracted the question. Curt did not want anyone to mistake
his joke for a serious question: “I was only kidding, I was acting like Greg was in charge.”
Greg belched loudly, going along with the charade: “It is true what can I say?” Everyone
laughed. But the talk broke down again into two separate, simultaneous conversations, with
Ken continuing to talk exclusively with Daniel. Greg mentioned TV evangelists, and Ken was
entreated to join this conversation. Mockingly, Ken wondered aloud if the “A.C.” in
Prabhupada's name stood for “Anti-Christ.” Curt was involved in setting up a videotape of
Greg and me on the Maury Povich show. When this was done, Curt called for quiet.
Comment. I found the brief acknowledgement of the power struggle between Greg and
Curt to be noteworthy. Throughout the deprogramming, power and control were underlying,
covert issues. In part this conflict was quite ordinary. Power and control are issues all task-
oriented groups must resolve, covertly or overtly (Cartwright and Zander, 1968). But
deprogramming is a highly specialized small-group process. In this deprogramming, as with
most there was a previously designated deprogramming “team leader” (Curt). But it is
impossible to predict beforehand which deprogrammer will be most able to establish rapport
with the cultist, or which deprogrammer will have the best “handle” on the situation.
Moreover, degree of rapport can change, with interpersonal „closeness' shifting between
various dyads or triads. In this deprogramming, Greg and Ken seemed to be in close
rapport, as had been expected and hoped for. But Curt was the most omnipresent
deprogrammer, and this constancy in and of itself also seemed to have an impact on the
amount of “bonding” between deprogrammer and deprogrammee. Curt exerted a relatively
flexible yet ultimately unyielding control over Ken's deprogramming. He could and did yield
his control here and there, but it was always clearly temporary, and at Curt‟s discretion.
Remarks similar to the quip made in relation to Greg, typically couched in humor, appeared
to serve as process markers and inhibitors. They de-energized covert shifts in control, and
seemed to set the other deprogrammers “in their place” without forcing to the surface any
underlying hostility.
Back on track. The conversation between deprogrammers and deprogrammee continued to
move in various, unfocused directions. Ken and Sandy talked again about how cult leaders
claim their own physical illnesses (and even deaths) are the result of taking into their
“spiritual and physical beings” the sins or evils of others. Then they discussed ISKCON's
involvement with gun smuggling. With the inclusion of Daniel's brother Raymond m the
conversation, the talk digressed into a machismo-dominated discussion of a new, smaller,
and more powerful Uzi machine gun. Meanwhile, on the videotape (in between the two talk
shows), a comedy skit on psychics caught our attention and made everyone laugh again.
The amount of joining around had definitely increased by the third day, causing even Ken to
call attention to it “Come on, are we just here for fun or are we gonna deprogram me? ...l
want to get into the [material].” Curt, acting on Ken's cue, more strongly exerted his
dominance. Telling everyone to be quiet with merely a glance, he asked, “You want to get
into deprogramming?” Ken replied in the affirmative. Curt half kiddingly, passed the
deprogrammee. “You sure?” Ken grew assertive. “Yeah. I want to listen to my tape of
Vishnupada defending Jayatirtha.” Following a brief discussion of where the tape was
located [Ken was not sure he had it with him.), Curt asked Ken if he could borrow all the
material Ken brought with him, except his journal. Curt's collection of ISKCON material was
somewhat legendary in deprogramming circles he had collected it over the years from
devotees he successfully deprogrammed. Ken, however, balked. “No ...you're not even my
guru, man!” Everyone laughed, and even Curt had to reply, “You mean I haven't been
elevated to guru status yet?” Curt‟s non-defensive response brought another round of
laughter. Ken and Curt then began to go through Ken's backpack, as Ken explained its
contents. Ken happened upon his journal and he stopped to read some of his writing to
Curt. The material was devotional to his guru and ISKCON, and I was surprised that Ken
read it and laughed without sounding embarrassed. It seemed to me that Ken had already