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and began listening and commenting rather than trying to explain.) Meanwhile, Curt was
engaged in an intense discussion with Sandy and Greg of what they needed to cover in
Lifton. Curt then went into the kitchen Greg joined in with Brian and Ken. They discussed
various notions of the “soul.” Because apparently Ken's only knowledge of these matters
was what he had learned in ISKCON, he cited primarily doctrine. Brian cut in, and began to
explain the process of reality testing. He launched into an example. If ISKCON says that if
you don't change your children will be demonic, we must first define “demonic.” Such
behaviors as lying and cheating might be indications of demonic possession. Then, observe
the children of both Krishna and non-Krishna parents. Is there a correlation between non-
demonic behavior and chanting? If not, we must try a different theory. One theory might be
that certain kinds of child-rearing, regardless of whether or not parents are chanting Hare
Krishna, result in “misbehaving” children. If that theory is a better predictor of child
behavior, then that theory must be closer to “the truth.” While he did not seem to follow all
of Brian's line of reasoning, Ken did finally relate to this abstraction. He expounded on
Brian's example by discussing how in ISKCON, it was accepted as fact that when one
encountered bratty Krishna children, it meant that their parents had not been chanting their
rounds. If the parents were chanting their rounds, then they weren't doing it with enough
commitment.
Dinner and a return to videotapes. It was getting late. Stephanie interrupted the
deprogramming to ask if Ken wanted some pizza he asked for mushroom pizza. As they
waited for the pies, Greg and Ken discussed the absurdities inherent in a belief in
reincarnation. I noticed that when Brian talked, Ken rarely said anything. Now, with Greg
back in the discussion, the conversation seemed to return to its more equitable equilibrium.
Stephanie and Risa returned to the kitchen to cook and clean. Sandy rejoined the
conversation, and the discussion returned to more general religious questions (e.g., the
nature of God). Sandy continued to keep the conversation relatively humorous and light.
This was clearly his style and a large part of his skill at building rapport. Ken ate his
mushroom pizza, and seemed to really enjoy it. Mushrooms are considered aphrodisiacs by
ISKCON, and thus are forbidden. He commented on how long it had been since he had
eaten mushrooms. Curt talked briefly about hallucinogenic mushrooms. By that time,
everyone was eating, and the conversation remained centered on ISKCON, but was fairly
light and peppered with jokes. Greg half-kiddingly asked Ken what his method of
purification would be, now that he would not be chanting Hare Krishna. Ken: “Oh, toga
parties. The big bong and the big dong.” Greg did not laugh at this (I felt it constituted a
form of “gallows humor”), although he acknowledged it “Oh, that kind of purification.” Curt
noted that it was probably time to think about getting some sleep. Sandy mockingly read
some advertisements for a variety of Krishna and other Eastern religious artifacts, with
promises that they would do all kinds of magical things. Ken and Greg talked about Krishna
recipes named after gurus, and made jokes about these. Ken then reached for some of
Cures copies of Back to Godhead, and began to poke fun at some of the articles and picture
captions. Curt returned and announced he was going to play the rest of “The Moore Report”
He wanted Ken to see the interview with Conway and Siegelman, the authors of Snapping.
“The Moore Report” continued with interviews of former cultists, and of Robert Lifton. There
was very little discussion as the tape played, with the exception of a few comments
(typically agreeing with what was said) here and there. When the narrator discussed the use
of fear, Ken commented on his own experiences with fear in ISKCON. Following “The Moore
Report” there was another brief documentary that also involved a section on Rehab,
including an interview with Curt. Ken watched that part closely.
As the videotape came to an end, Ken talked about trying to get some sleep. Everyone
agreed this would be a good idea. For some time, Ken and the deprogrammers vied to

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 71
discuss The Moore Repot but it was clear that Ken was becoming exhausted. Finally, Curt
half-kiddingly ordered Ken to get to bed. Ken complied.
Running errands. Curt and Sandy used this time to take stock of their supplies. Generally,
the deprogrammers took stock of food supplies at some point every day. One of the
deprogrammers was then designated to do the food shopping. The deprogrammers ate well
but not expensively. Food money was included in the overall deprogramming bill. This
evening, the overall food supply was in good shape, but the deprogrammers were short on
beer, Twinkies, and cigarettes. Curt figured these items (with the exception of the beer)
could be easily obtained at a convenience store like Seven-Eleven or Wawa. Along with
Sandy and Brian, we headed out.
The trip to Wawa ended up taking two hours. It became an outing, a brief reprieve from
being indoors and under constant pressure to perform all the time. Brian made some phone
calls. Curt shopped not only for food but for greeting cards. Sandy looked at magazines.
After making the purchases, we sat down on a curb and made small talk. We then left the
store, and Curt drove to the Krispos' house. Curt had deprogrammed the Krispo daughter
about a year ago. I waited in the car as Curt visited. Although I knew this family (they had
been referred to Curt through my counseling practice, the Re-Entry Therapy, Information
and Referral Network) I was not invited in for the visit and I did not ask to be so. This kind
of “social call” seems to be a fairly common practice among deprogrammers, who rely
heavily on word-of- mouth referrals and other social contacts in the extensive, informal
anti-cult “network” of affected families. In addition, deprogramming is so personal, intense,
and emotional (and expensive), that many times families and deprogrammers seem to
become fast and long-term friends.
Casual conversation and my struggle with overinvolvement. Following the visit with
the Krispo family, we headed back to the Epstein house. Everyone else had gone to sleep.
We unpacked our grocery bags and put the beer, soda, and milk in the refrigerator, and the
packaged goods (Twinkies, pretzels, potato chips) in the laundry room. Beers were cracked
open, and everyone seemed to relax. By now I felt totally and overly involved with the
deprogramming process and the deprogrammers. As Curt and Sandy drank and smoked, I
felt an indescribable urge to join in. So I grabbed a beer and bummed a cigarette, and I too
smoked and drank. While drinking was not foreign to me, I had given up smoking 9 months
ago. “is was a relapse for me, yet it also felt so good. I lost a significant amount of
professional distance that evening. I knew it as it happened, but I didn't seem to care.
Finally, the deprogrammers decided to head back outside, to a bar. As usual this jaunt was
strictly limited to Curt and Sandy. I felt somewhat panicked by my own apparent loss of
control (i.e., my smoking), so I was glad that Curt and Sandy in effect gave me an easy
opportunity to leave the Epsteins and return to my own house. I got into my car and drove
home.
The Fifth Day: Morning
Sandy explains deprogramming. I arrived back at the Epstein house at around 9:00 am.
It was a beautiful mild Spring day. I was let into the house by George, the security man.
Soon afterward, Beth Epstein came downstairs for breakfast before leaving for her weekend
job. Beth always looked annoyed the few times I saw her. In general, she seemed to feel
put out and inconvenienced by this invasion of people. She did not interact very much with
the team, and she usually just seemed to be trying to carry on with her life as though
nothing interfered. Beth and George were the only two people awake. I listened to Beth
chat and then complain about her job and friends while we both drank coffee, until she left
shortly after 10 am.
Everyone else remained asleep, so I went into the den to work on my notes and read some
articles Brian had lent me. Just before noon, Sandy came down. Ken was still asleep, and