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chanted], then [spiritual perfection] will be accomplished ...” Ken quickly responded: “In
time, gradually, in time.” Sandy pushed still harder “Yeah, but how much time do they
need? How many gurus have to fall? How much imperfection does one need to see before
he stands back and says „there's something wrong here!‟?”
The conversation remained centered on the issue of whether doubts are valid indications of
problems or of lack of faith. Sandy recounted the many former Krishnas who reported
having had doubts while in ISKCON Ken was not an aberration. Sandy and Brian's general
tone seemed both parental and yet listening. At about I 1:00 am., I returned to Ken's
bedroom. Ken and Brian were finishing a conversation, and I watched as Sandy listened
and affirmed Ken, in what seemed to be a very client-centered stance. At one point, for
example, Ken mentioned that he felt he didn't have any individuality before ISKCON, as well
as in ISKCON. Sandy, in reply, both mirrored and interpreted: “The very thing you left [lack
of individuality] turned out to be what you got” Ken then talked about the anguish and
frustration of never being able to “achieve this perfection ...What do I have to do to get it?”
Sandy responded with humor, “You become a vegetable!” [everyone laughed] Returning to
the issue of guilt-inducement (and perhaps sensing the risk Ken was taking by expressing
some of his doubts), Sandy then pointed out that when doubts are experienced, the
message in ISKCON (as in all cults) is “there's nothing wrong with the doctrine, there's
something wrong with you ...It always comes back on you ...Ifs never the leaderships
fault, or the doctrine's fault, its always our fault.” Sandy became angry. “As much as I
wanted the truth, as much as you wanted the truth, what was the reality of the situation?
It‟s on a dangle ...they dangle that carrot [promised perfection] out in front of your face to
keep you walking ...[they want you to] keep chasing it, keep chasing it, keep chasing it.
You're continually trying to get that [perfection].” In a strange twisting of Sandy's words (a
“twisting” that would occur on numerous occasions throughout the deprogramming) Ken
linked Sandy's insight to one expressed by the founder of ISKCON: “That’s what
Prabhupada said about materialists” [i.e., the material world has you chasing after the
unattainable, after nonsense]. Sandy, overtly missing Ken's strange link but perhaps
responding to it on an emotional level, seemed to grow impatient: “Yeah, well, test those
realities, brother! Test those realities! Put those things to the test!” Ken then stated he
agreed with Sandy and then in another interesting and unexpected statement seemed to
predict the eventual successful outcome of the deprogramming. He became frightened and
spontaneously asked not to be expected to sue ISKCON or be called to testify against
ISKCON. At the time, I felt that Ken might have sensed the tide turning, but was fearful
because he believed (in accordance with ISKCON propaganda about deprogramming) that
ex-cultists must testify against the objects of their prior allegiance, like brainwashed POWs
in the Korean War. Sandy seemed to interpret Ken's statement somewhat differently,
responding to a typical underlying fear. He reassured Ken that the issue of lawsuits and
testifying was irrelevant to the task at hand. The goal was to get on with life. Sandy must
have hit a responsive chord, because the talk then grew very subdued, and Ken seemed
greatly calmed.
ISKCON, Nazism, and violence. With Ken calmed down, the discussion focused on the
background of ISKCON. Brian paralleled ISKCON's history to the rise of Nazism. When the
Nazi Party gained power, it became even more evil and corrupt than it was while out of
power. I at first thought Brian was taking a risk by drawing this dramatic comparison. Much
to my surprise, Ken instead confirmed Brian's statements by recalling the ISKCON founder‟s
words: “Prabhupada said the day will come ...when the Hare Krishna movement is such a
big influence in the world that you can walk up to somebody and say „do you believe in
Krishna?‟ and if the guy says „no' then “bang!”, you can blow the guy's head off.” Ken's
revelation was accepted matter-of-factly. Additional parallels were discussed. The Nazi
movement, when in power, should not have surprised anyone their behavior was exactly as
they themselves predicted when nobody took them seriously (e.g., concentration camps).

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 45
The book Nineteen Eighty-four (Orwell, 1954) predicted Lifton's (1961) concept of “loading
the language” with such ironies as the Ministry of Peace being in charge of war, the Ministry
of Truth being in charge of lying, and the Ministry of Love being in charge of terror. The
point: We should take cults and other totalitarian movements seriously when they predict
that wars and political terror will follow their ascent to power. Sandy: “Somewhere down the
line they [cults] all say we‟re the elite ...we‟re gonna wipe everyone else out.” Sandy's
statement seemed to confront Ken on a personal, individual level, and this was more than
he could tolerate. He defended his beliefs and his behaviors by noting that ISKCON's
predictions of violence and genocide were not related to his “relationship with God.” But
Sandy would not accept this rationalization and he confronted Ken's apparent lack of
integration. “Is your relationship with God superior to that of Prabhupada‟s?... If so, maybe
Prabhupada was mistaken [and] should be bowing down to you.”
Just then, at 11:19 a.m., Greg Stern arrived. He had gone home the night before at about
1:00 am. Greg started off by asking Ken how he felt, how he had slept and if he had learned
anything from the night before. Ken's “regression” must have been very noticeable (and
expected), because Greg quickly expressed this observation to Ken. When Ken
acknowledged that he was having trouble remembering last night‟s material, or discussions,
Greg commented on how he had also had trouble keeping track of information from moment
to moment and day to day during his own deprogramming. In this way, Greg did not
confront Ken directly on his “regression,” yet delivered a subtle message in which Ken's
internal cognitions (in defense of ISKCON) were reframed as a “regression” (as opposed to
being considered a return to a viewpoint that had equal validity to the views of the
deprogrammers, for example). Ken seemed to understand this underlying message, and
perhaps the way the message was suggested in an indirect way helped Ken to consider it
without getting defensive or feeling guilty. His overt reaction clearly suggested that he
identified with Greg's self-disclosure.
The conversation now turned to Krishnas using guns and armaments. Ken argued that
people would not object to a farmer having a shotgun to protect his farm. Sandy and Greg
countered with the fact that the Krishnas have been found with grenade launchers and M-16
military rifles, hardly the average “self-defense” weapons. I noted that the conversation had
quickly become dominated about equally by Ken and the deprogrammers, in contrast to
most of the conversation the day before. Ken now seemed to be very active, although much
of his speech was concerned with defending ISKCON. This increased level of activity would
generally be sustained throughout the middle portion of the deprogramming, and I was able
to quantify it in my analysis of the “snapping” period.
Much of Ken's attitude toward ISKCON this late morning and early afternoon seemed to
vacillate between acceptance of and even involvement in the deprogrammers' criticisms,
and defense of ISKCON. At times, Ken would talk clearly and cogently about some of the
contradictions he had found, using terms like “I used to think like that.” Soon thereafter,
however, he would again be strongly defending the ISKCON movement and doctrine.
Throughout these vacillations, Ken did not show overt signs of emotional struggle or conflict
Yet he seemed to be in great cognitive, if not emotional turmoil.
As the discussion of ISKCON's arm caches continued, Greg remarked that the concept of a
peaceful God just does not seem to be consistent with Krishna practice. Ken for the first
time admitted that he had seen rifles in New York and New Jersey temples. Prior to this
conversation, Ken remained silent when the topic of ISKCON armaments was brought up
(and by his silence, he seemed to be denying their existence). Nonetheless, Ken again tried
to justify the possession of guns, by asking what should be done when property is invaded.
Sandy responded with mixed humor and anger: “[You] call the police! That's what everyone
else does.” Greg and Ken then talked about ex-Krishna vigilantes who have attacked
ISKCON, sometimes with physical violence (e.g., Greg Bryant). Although Greg