Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 44
chanted], then [spiritual perfection] will be accomplished ...” Ken quickly responded: “In
time, gradually, in time.” Sandy pushed still harder “Yeah, but how much time do they
need? How many gurus have to fall? How much imperfection does one need to see before
he stands back and says „there's something wrong here!‟?”
The conversation remained centered on the issue of whether doubts are valid indications of
problems or of lack of faith. Sandy recounted the many former Krishnas who reported
having had doubts while in ISKCON Ken was not an aberration. Sandy and Brian's general
tone seemed both parental and yet listening. At about I 1:00 am., I returned to Ken's
bedroom. Ken and Brian were finishing a conversation, and I watched as Sandy listened
and affirmed Ken, in what seemed to be a very client-centered stance. At one point, for
example, Ken mentioned that he felt he didn't have any individuality before ISKCON, as well
as in ISKCON. Sandy, in reply, both mirrored and interpreted: “The very thing you left [lack
of individuality] turned out to be what you got” Ken then talked about the anguish and
frustration of never being able to “achieve this perfection ...What do I have to do to get it?”
Sandy responded with humor, “You become a vegetable!” [everyone laughed] Returning to
the issue of guilt-inducement (and perhaps sensing the risk Ken was taking by expressing
some of his doubts), Sandy then pointed out that when doubts are experienced, the
message in ISKCON (as in all cults) is “there's nothing wrong with the doctrine, there's
something wrong with you ...It always comes back on you ...Ifs never the leaderships
fault, or the doctrine's fault, its always our fault.” Sandy became angry. “As much as I
wanted the truth, as much as you wanted the truth, what was the reality of the situation?
It‟s on a dangle ...they dangle that carrot [promised perfection] out in front of your face to
keep you walking ...[they want you to] keep chasing it, keep chasing it, keep chasing it.
You're continually trying to get that [perfection].” In a strange twisting of Sandy's words (a
“twisting” that would occur on numerous occasions throughout the deprogramming) Ken
linked Sandy's insight to one expressed by the founder of ISKCON: “That’s what
Prabhupada said about materialists” [i.e., the material world has you chasing after the
unattainable, after nonsense]. Sandy, overtly missing Ken's strange link but perhaps
responding to it on an emotional level, seemed to grow impatient: “Yeah, well, test those
realities, brother! Test those realities! Put those things to the test!” Ken then stated he
agreed with Sandy and then in another interesting and unexpected statement seemed to
predict the eventual successful outcome of the deprogramming. He became frightened and
spontaneously asked not to be expected to sue ISKCON or be called to testify against
ISKCON. At the time, I felt that Ken might have sensed the tide turning, but was fearful
because he believed (in accordance with ISKCON propaganda about deprogramming) that
ex-cultists must testify against the objects of their prior allegiance, like brainwashed POWs
in the Korean War. Sandy seemed to interpret Ken's statement somewhat differently,
responding to a typical underlying fear. He reassured Ken that the issue of lawsuits and
testifying was irrelevant to the task at hand. The goal was to get on with life. Sandy must
have hit a responsive chord, because the talk then grew very subdued, and Ken seemed
greatly calmed.
ISKCON, Nazism, and violence. With Ken calmed down, the discussion focused on the
background of ISKCON. Brian paralleled ISKCON's history to the rise of Nazism. When the
Nazi Party gained power, it became even more evil and corrupt than it was while out of
power. I at first thought Brian was taking a risk by drawing this dramatic comparison. Much
to my surprise, Ken instead confirmed Brian's statements by recalling the ISKCON founder‟s
words: “Prabhupada said the day will come ...when the Hare Krishna movement is such a
big influence in the world that you can walk up to somebody and say „do you believe in
Krishna?‟ and if the guy says „no' then “bang!”, you can blow the guy's head off.” Ken's
revelation was accepted matter-of-factly. Additional parallels were discussed. The Nazi
movement, when in power, should not have surprised anyone their behavior was exactly as
they themselves predicted when nobody took them seriously (e.g., concentration camps).
chanted], then [spiritual perfection] will be accomplished ...” Ken quickly responded: “In
time, gradually, in time.” Sandy pushed still harder “Yeah, but how much time do they
need? How many gurus have to fall? How much imperfection does one need to see before
he stands back and says „there's something wrong here!‟?”
The conversation remained centered on the issue of whether doubts are valid indications of
problems or of lack of faith. Sandy recounted the many former Krishnas who reported
having had doubts while in ISKCON Ken was not an aberration. Sandy and Brian's general
tone seemed both parental and yet listening. At about I 1:00 am., I returned to Ken's
bedroom. Ken and Brian were finishing a conversation, and I watched as Sandy listened
and affirmed Ken, in what seemed to be a very client-centered stance. At one point, for
example, Ken mentioned that he felt he didn't have any individuality before ISKCON, as well
as in ISKCON. Sandy, in reply, both mirrored and interpreted: “The very thing you left [lack
of individuality] turned out to be what you got” Ken then talked about the anguish and
frustration of never being able to “achieve this perfection ...What do I have to do to get it?”
Sandy responded with humor, “You become a vegetable!” [everyone laughed] Returning to
the issue of guilt-inducement (and perhaps sensing the risk Ken was taking by expressing
some of his doubts), Sandy then pointed out that when doubts are experienced, the
message in ISKCON (as in all cults) is “there's nothing wrong with the doctrine, there's
something wrong with you ...It always comes back on you ...Ifs never the leaderships
fault, or the doctrine's fault, its always our fault.” Sandy became angry. “As much as I
wanted the truth, as much as you wanted the truth, what was the reality of the situation?
It‟s on a dangle ...they dangle that carrot [promised perfection] out in front of your face to
keep you walking ...[they want you to] keep chasing it, keep chasing it, keep chasing it.
You're continually trying to get that [perfection].” In a strange twisting of Sandy's words (a
“twisting” that would occur on numerous occasions throughout the deprogramming) Ken
linked Sandy's insight to one expressed by the founder of ISKCON: “That’s what
Prabhupada said about materialists” [i.e., the material world has you chasing after the
unattainable, after nonsense]. Sandy, overtly missing Ken's strange link but perhaps
responding to it on an emotional level, seemed to grow impatient: “Yeah, well, test those
realities, brother! Test those realities! Put those things to the test!” Ken then stated he
agreed with Sandy and then in another interesting and unexpected statement seemed to
predict the eventual successful outcome of the deprogramming. He became frightened and
spontaneously asked not to be expected to sue ISKCON or be called to testify against
ISKCON. At the time, I felt that Ken might have sensed the tide turning, but was fearful
because he believed (in accordance with ISKCON propaganda about deprogramming) that
ex-cultists must testify against the objects of their prior allegiance, like brainwashed POWs
in the Korean War. Sandy seemed to interpret Ken's statement somewhat differently,
responding to a typical underlying fear. He reassured Ken that the issue of lawsuits and
testifying was irrelevant to the task at hand. The goal was to get on with life. Sandy must
have hit a responsive chord, because the talk then grew very subdued, and Ken seemed
greatly calmed.
ISKCON, Nazism, and violence. With Ken calmed down, the discussion focused on the
background of ISKCON. Brian paralleled ISKCON's history to the rise of Nazism. When the
Nazi Party gained power, it became even more evil and corrupt than it was while out of
power. I at first thought Brian was taking a risk by drawing this dramatic comparison. Much
to my surprise, Ken instead confirmed Brian's statements by recalling the ISKCON founder‟s
words: “Prabhupada said the day will come ...when the Hare Krishna movement is such a
big influence in the world that you can walk up to somebody and say „do you believe in
Krishna?‟ and if the guy says „no' then “bang!”, you can blow the guy's head off.” Ken's
revelation was accepted matter-of-factly. Additional parallels were discussed. The Nazi
movement, when in power, should not have surprised anyone their behavior was exactly as
they themselves predicted when nobody took them seriously (e.g., concentration camps).
