Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 72
would sleep until shortly after noon, his longest sustained period of sleep since the
deprogramming began. As I reviewed my notes, Sandy asked what I thought of what I had
observed thus far. We set up some chairs out on the pool patio, and this question led into a
long discussion of Sandy's view of the deprogramming process.
According to Sandy, the first task of the deprogramming is to disarm the leader, followed
closely by a critical review of the discrepancies between the group's public image and how it
really behaves “behind closed dom.” Then, the deprogrammers debunk the scripture they
point out the discrepancies between the group's doctrine and its actions. On an involuntary
deprogramming, the literature on thought reform material then follows. On a voluntary
deprogramming (also generally known as an “exit-counseling”), one must be more careful.
The deprogrammers must debunk the doctrine, and show the contradictions in what the
leader says, but they don't directly attack the leader “Work with the fallacy. You don't attack
the leader so much as you do some of the things he may have said that are out of context
(i.e., that the leader used out of context] or historically inaccurate. And then give them the
thought reform, and then tear the leader apart on a voluntary [deprogramming].” I asked
why the leader is treated more delicately on a voluntary. Sandy replied, “Because [when]
you get in a voluntary situation, most of these guys are really looked into the leader, they
think they're almost deities, you know, idols. You start tearing them apart (too early) and
that‟s going to close them off from receiving anything else.” Of course, “it depends on the
leader.” To some extent, the cultist will let you know what he or she can listen to first.
Sandy went on to tell how they let the involuntary deprogrammee know what is going to
happen: “We tell them [that] what we want to do is address the philosophy, we want to
address the leadership, the foundation of it, and then we want to go into the thought reform
process to give [them) the framework to put all “stuff together.” Most often, this is told to
the cultist on the way to the deprogramming site. Sandy explained. “Yeah, we‟re up front
about things, there's no use in hiding anything.” I noted that this might give cultists a way
to map their progress, which could be dangerous (for the deprogrammers) if the cultist is
trying to “fake” it. Sandy responded, “They're not thinking much along those lines ...Most
of them are just pretty scared, and we're just trying to let them know that there is a
schedule, there is a progression that we kind of go at ...and we demystify it. They're
scared, [they believe] the demons have them now.”
Sandy and Curt tell the cultist he or she will meet ex-members who will share their
experiences, and Sandy will share his experiences in his group. There will be few surprises.
“During the transfer, basically we just want to keep them calm. I tell them that “if what we
have is darkness and you have light, then there's no amount of darkness that is going to
overcome the light. So there's nothing to worry about. “You're the only one who has
nothing to lose. Your parents are taking the chance of never seeing you again [if] you go
underground, change your name, leave the country. We're taking the chance of having
criminal ...charges thrown at us. Along with your parents, who are taking that chance too.
You're the only one with nothing to lose. Either your faith's going to be strong, or you're
going to we that this isn't the place for you to be.” I asked Sandy if this little speech did
actually calm the cultists down a lot. Sandy said they varied, but that it does “give them
something to think about.” He then usually adds something like, “Look, you can put any
truth to the test, and if there's truth to it then it will pass the test. Truth always stands.”
Deprogramming uses to its advantage the cultist's belief that his or her group has the
absolute truth. Sandy explained. “It wouldn't be a cult if it didn't have the absolute truth.
That‟s just understood. They know they have the absolute truth, we know they think they
have the absolute truth.” What gets through to then,, Sandy continued, is when, after a
while, a deprogrammer begins to use the cults jargon. “Then they know you know your
stuff.”

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 73
Some deprogrammers wait to bring in ex-members, but Curt and Sandy bring them in as
soon as possible, because only the ex-member can “spot the party rap right away. We try to
bring in an ex-member right away (we usually use] two deprogrammers and one ex-
member [right from the start” Some deprogrammers hold off on the ex-member, figuring
that the cultist will immediately discount the ex-member because he “saw the truth” and left
anyway (making him even more evil). Sandy stated that he had not found that to be the
case. Bringing in Dara toward the end of the deprogramming, however, is by plan. Ken has
seen women in a very circumscribed way these past four years, and Dara would be a strong
contradiction of that view. Confronting Ken with a woman like Dara too early might have
threatened him or made him defensive.
Ken awakens. At this point Ken awakened, and he was greeted happily by Sandy as he
opened the glass door and came out onto the pool's patio. At precisely the same time, Greg
came out poolside. Being outside in the warm, blustery weather, I had not heard him arrive.
Sandy, Greg and Ken made themselves comfortable on the pool furniture, and then all three
began discussing Lifton, picking up where they had left off the night before. As Sandy read
from Lifton, he asked Ken to come up with ISKCON examples to illustrate what Lifton wrote.
As a result, the conversation remained at least 50-50.
Fifth Day: Afternoon and Evening
Dara arrives. At around 12:30 p.m., Dara Coy arrived. Dara introduced herself and
launched right into a series of questions for Ken. She began detailing her criticisms of
ISKCON theology. The deprogramming had taken some turns toward the less serious
yesterday. Dara was a fresh deprogrammer and she seemed anxious to do her job. Ken,
however, had not yet “agreed” to get serious again, and so he responded to some of Dara‟s
questions with kidding and jokes. At one point, he replied to a question with “Ah, there's a
little bit of a demon in me.” Sandy, perhaps taking his cues from Dara, confronted Ken
without his typical joking style on how subtle the Krishna brainwashing had been, how all-
pervasive. It even pervaded Ken's jokes. Sandy caustically noted to Ken that he was
continuing to use Krishna terminology, even in his anti-Krishna jokes.
Ken, while briefly acknowledging Sandy's criticism, talked instead about how he would at
times complain to his guru that he felt he was being robbed of his individuality. His guru
would respond by admonishing him and demanding repentance. Although he still
maintained a critical attitude toward ISKCON, with Dara Ken often seemed to be defending
Krishna ideology, and I wondered if Ken was “backsliding” (to use the deprogrammers'
term) once again. At one point Ken again referred to the human body as “consisting of
blood, pus, bile, and stool,” something he had not done for the past three days. Although he
quickly added “[I know there is more to the body than that,” it was clear from Dara and
Sandy's reaction that they were uncertain whether or not Ken still literally believed the
ISKCON view of the human body. Soon after this comment Ken again referred to women as
being more “lusty” than men, another ISKCON “throwback.”
Dara asked Ken about the nature of “pure devotional service” -if even ISKCON admits that
it is very rarely attained, then just how attainable is it? And exactly what is it? This seemed
related to Lifton's concept of the “demand for purity” in totalistic systems. In addition, if the
gurus are supposed to have “pure devotional service,” then how do we explain the excesses
and amoral behavior of Jayatirtha or Kirtanananda? Ken noted that, according to ISKCON,
once you become a pure devotee, then all your actions transcend the usual rules and
regulations. Dara countered. “then how do you explain Jayatirtha being kicked out” of
ISKCON? Ken agreed with Dara's point. He went on to talk about how he sometimes “was
waiting and waiting” and hoping “that Vishnupada would fall down so that I could justifiably
leave the movement.” Ken reminded the deprogrammers of his tape in which Vishnupada
defends Jayatirtha, putting the guilt for Jayatirtha's fall on the devotees. The three