Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 30
Looking for a Subject
Plans to observe and tape the Ken Butler deprogramming began in August 1983, when I
first met Greg Stern, a former ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness)
devotee who was himself deprogrammed in 198 by a deprogramming team led by Curt
Miller. Since then, Greg had worked on several deprogramming cases. I talked to Greg and
his wife Bobbi about my dissertation plans and my need to observe and tape a
deprogramming from beginning to end. They responded positively to my plans and stated
their willingness to help. The matter did not come up again until October 1983 when Greg
called to tell me that he would be consulting on a deprogramming and he would ask Curt,
who was again the team leader, if I might observe. A few days later, the deprogramming
began. This case did not seem to be “typical” one. Nevertheless, observing this
deprogramming gave me the opportunity to meet Curt and his team (who would be good
future contacts) In addition, the team was concerned about the cultist (“Barry”), who
seemed to be demonstrating psychotic symptoms, and they wanted input from a mental
health professional. This deprogramming did in fact turn out to be highly atypical the cultist
did appear to be psychotic, and once this was established, the formal deprogramming ended
and the deprogramming team tried to convince the cultist's parents of the need for
psychiatric hospitalization. I maintained copious notes on what happened, which
contributed to the formulation of hypotheses regarding deprogrammer (if no cultist)
behavior.
In January 1984, at a meeting of the local chapter of the Citizens Freedom Foundation
(CFF), a national cult awareness network, I initially met Risa Butler. Risa talked briefly
about her son, who was in ISKCON, and about what could be done. Deprogramming was not
mentioned by anyone at this time. In February, I met Risa again, at a workshop I was
conducting. She recognized me, and after the workshop, she spoke with me for a few
minutes Risa was considering a deprogramming. I told her about my study, and I asked her
if she would contact me should she decide to go through with the deprogramming.
Finding a Subject
About two months later, in early April, I heard from Bobbi and Greg Stern that Curt Miller
would be coming into Philadelphia soon to conduct a Krishna deprogramming. I called Risa
to ask her if this deprogramming involved her son. She acknowledged that she was thinking
about a deprogramming, but would not give me any more information Curt‟s standard
instruction to parents is to avoid divulging any information to anyone over the phone. On
the weekend of April 13-15, Bobbi and I attended a Regional CFF conference. Curt was
there, primarily to keep in touch with referral sources. He had just returned from a
deprogramming in Arizona. We had lunch together and discussed this most recent case, as
well as the October 1983 case involving Barry, the apparently psychotic Krishna. I reminded
Curt of my need for a “typical” deprogramming. He informed me that he would be working
for Risa starting that Monday or Tuesday. He agreed to allow me to conduct my study, and
asked me to allow him to make the arrangements with Risa and the family at whose house
the deprogramming would be held.
I was able to find out where Curt was staying from Greg, who was planning to assist on the
case, and I called him that Monday evening, April 16. I detected a combination of covert
hesitation with overt readiness to be of assistance in Curt's voice. He gave me the address
of the deprogramming site (a home located in a Philadelphia suburb), and slightly incorrect
directions to their house. The house where the deprogramming was to take place was
owned by “Robert and Ellen Epstein,” an anti-cult activist couple whose oldest son had
himself been deprogrammed out of ISKCON. I could not recall having met them before. Curt
then explained that he would call me to let me know when I could come to the house.

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 31
Curt called early Tuesday afternoon (April 17, 1984) to give me a brief rundown of the
“snatch” plans. Ken was to be “picked up” at around 4:00 p.m., so I should plan to be at the
Epsteins' house at 5:00 p.m. When I asked to be present during the “pick-up”, Curt
explained that the car's limited seating along with the very precariousness of this event
precluded my presence. Curt then told me what time to arrive, and I accepted it without
further questioning. I then asked Curt if he would consider doing the taping himself until
such time as I could be in the same room as Ken, and Curt said he would do ft if he could.
The First Day: Afternoon
Arriving. I left my house at 4:30 p.m. to drive to the deprogramming. The deprogramming
was to take place at a house located in lower Bucks county, a 20-minute drive from my own
house. I felt relieved about this location if I needed any supplies or support, I could get
away during the night or some other quiet time and pick them up. As I drove, I felt anxious,
excited and apprehensive. I had a very good idea of the planning, time, and money that
went into this event. “What if the deprogramming doesn't work? What if the cultist does not
agree to being audiotaped? What if something goes wrong, and (the worst scenario) the
police somehow become involved?”
These and other questions raced through my mind as I drove. I felt alone and insecure, yet
very excited. I thought about how exotic and risky deprogrammings are, or seem. My
nervousness increased as I pulled into their development and cautiously approached their
street. I scanned the street for any signs of “unusual” activity.
I was expecting to see something a little unusual, and I did. There was a slightly greater
number of cars parked near the Epsteins' house than near their neighbors'. I correctly
guessed that Ken and the pickup team had already arrived. I parked my own car half a
block away from the Epsteins' house. After gathering all my material and making certain I
had everything I needed, I walked slowly to the front door and rang the bell. After a short
while, a face peered though the small door window it was George, a “security” person I had
met 6 months ago. He recognized me, and let me in. After exchanging greetings, I walked
into the kitchen. Present were: Ellen and Robert Epstein and their son, Daniel, Risa (Ken's
mother), Curt, George and Jim. Ellen seemed surprised to see me. Curt hadn't notified her
that I was coming. Later, I was able to better clarify my purpose for being there. I next said
hello to Curt and Risa, and I thanked Risa for allowing me to be present. I introduced myself
to Jim, whom I had never met before. He was the newest member of Curt‟s security team,
and this was to be his first deprogramming. I was then told that Ken was already upstairs,
talking to Sandy.
Risa returned to her chore of washing some glasses and then preparing that evening's
dinner. Her quick, jerky movements and hyperalertness suggested tension and anxiety.
After brief introductions Daniel and his father returned to their discussion of how and when
Daniel would get back to Vermont where he worked and went to college. I asked Curt for a
brief account of the pickup.
The pickup. Curt explained that Ken was picked up at his aunt‟s house, his visit there
having been preplanned. They pulled up their rented car as he walked out onto the street.
Ken's mother was with them. Ken was twice asked to get into the car. He refused both
times. Curt, Sandy, and the security men then got out and, upon seeing the four, Ken
entered the car. The drive to the Epsteins' house was relatively uneventful. Risa later
stated that she thought her son seemed nervous and frightened, yet somehow relieved. Ken
himself later reported having mixed feelings, including relief, about the “snatch.” Curt and
Sandy both noted that Ken seemed frightened, but that he was talkative, a good sign. They
stated that Ken vacillated between rage and insisting he had doubts about ISKCON anyway
and was already voluntarily (but temporarily) considering moving out of the Temple.
Therefore, the deprogramming was unnecessary. Ken asked if he could terminate the