Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 61
contribute some of his own thoughts. About 45 minutes later, Ken and Greg returned it had
become somewhat windy and cold outside. Ken and Brian began talking generally about
religious criticism, literature, and history (e.g., the history of monotheism in Egypt). As I
listened, I thought about what Brian was doing in light of his thoughts on the
deprogramming process. The goal here appeared to be to expose Ken to the idea that there
is a great deal of breadth and depth in religious thought and history. The two engaged in a
prolonged discussion of the birth of Christianity, and the “psychohistory” of some famous
religious leaders, including Christ. At this point, and appearing somewhat frustrated, Ken
expressed his wish to avoid all organized religion now. Sandy came into the conversation
with a brief story about a Moonist who, while taking a break during her deprogramming,
accidentally turned on Saturday Night Live and heard an anti-Moon skit. This sparked Ken's
renewed interest (in general, almost any discussion involving females grabbed his
attention). The discussion quickly gravitated toward ISKCON views of women, sex, and
“animal desires” in general. As in the past, talk about sex and impulses resulted in joking.
But for Curt and Sandy, humor was usually a means to an end, or a temporary tension-
breaker. Almost as quickly as the joking began, they returned to a more serious discussion
of various religions' views of intimacy, sex, and love.
New interpretations. As they talked, I noted what appeared to be another shift in the
quality of Ken's conversation he seemed to be doing a lot of independent thinking now. He
began to reinterpret detailed aspects of the ISKCON philosophy, while considering the
possibility that the philosophy might have “negative” meaning. He began to wonder aloud
about the possibility that translations of Hindu scripture might not always be accurate, while
literal translations might not make sense. Brian pointed out, for example, that if one literally
translated an Eskimo's speech, the English-speaking listener would rapidly grow confused,
as Eskimos always refer to themselves in the third person.
As a process, most of the conversation this morning and early afternoon seemed more
overtly geared toward pending Ken with alternative hypotheses and explanations, and
different perspectives on information he already seemed to possess. The theme that unified
these discussions was not to “positively” persuade toward a theology, but rather to give
additional reasons for negating Krishna theology.
From this standpoint, Ken and Brian discussed difficulties inherent in cross-cultural
translations, and “noise” in communication systems in general. They talked about
communication with children, and about the different kinds of relationships between parents
and children. Moving away from communication and toward relationship issues, they then
talked about what kinds of relationships are characterized by domination and control. The
conversation remained fairly equally divided between deprogrammer(s) and deprogrammee.
Greg then discussed the relationships of some gurus and devotees with their wives and
other devotees, critiquing them for being based on disproportionate amounts of power. Greg
talked about how, when a devotee gets physically ill it is because he is not spiritually
advanced, but when Prabhupada had a toothache, it was because the devotees were not
doing all they spiritually could. Sandy then asked how a Hindu country like India, with strict
dictates regarding celibacy, has one third of the world‟s population.
The deprogramming team again talked at length about ISKCON (and other religions') myths
about masturbation (e.g., ISKCON said you would die, or lose intelligence Curt's Catholic
teachers said he would go blind). Laughing, Sandy noted to Ken, “What difference does all
this make if [according to ISKCON] you're not your body, anyway?” Ken agreed, laughing.
Curt, Sandy, and Ken continued to talk at length about the various guilts and feelings Ken
had about sex while in ISKCON. Ken was told to chant as a means of suppressing his sexual
feelings. He recalled a time, when he spent all day cleaning the temple for a visit by
Gurupada, and when Gurupada arrived, the guru sat down and closed his eyes to chant..and
then promptly fell asleep.
contribute some of his own thoughts. About 45 minutes later, Ken and Greg returned it had
become somewhat windy and cold outside. Ken and Brian began talking generally about
religious criticism, literature, and history (e.g., the history of monotheism in Egypt). As I
listened, I thought about what Brian was doing in light of his thoughts on the
deprogramming process. The goal here appeared to be to expose Ken to the idea that there
is a great deal of breadth and depth in religious thought and history. The two engaged in a
prolonged discussion of the birth of Christianity, and the “psychohistory” of some famous
religious leaders, including Christ. At this point, and appearing somewhat frustrated, Ken
expressed his wish to avoid all organized religion now. Sandy came into the conversation
with a brief story about a Moonist who, while taking a break during her deprogramming,
accidentally turned on Saturday Night Live and heard an anti-Moon skit. This sparked Ken's
renewed interest (in general, almost any discussion involving females grabbed his
attention). The discussion quickly gravitated toward ISKCON views of women, sex, and
“animal desires” in general. As in the past, talk about sex and impulses resulted in joking.
But for Curt and Sandy, humor was usually a means to an end, or a temporary tension-
breaker. Almost as quickly as the joking began, they returned to a more serious discussion
of various religions' views of intimacy, sex, and love.
New interpretations. As they talked, I noted what appeared to be another shift in the
quality of Ken's conversation he seemed to be doing a lot of independent thinking now. He
began to reinterpret detailed aspects of the ISKCON philosophy, while considering the
possibility that the philosophy might have “negative” meaning. He began to wonder aloud
about the possibility that translations of Hindu scripture might not always be accurate, while
literal translations might not make sense. Brian pointed out, for example, that if one literally
translated an Eskimo's speech, the English-speaking listener would rapidly grow confused,
as Eskimos always refer to themselves in the third person.
As a process, most of the conversation this morning and early afternoon seemed more
overtly geared toward pending Ken with alternative hypotheses and explanations, and
different perspectives on information he already seemed to possess. The theme that unified
these discussions was not to “positively” persuade toward a theology, but rather to give
additional reasons for negating Krishna theology.
From this standpoint, Ken and Brian discussed difficulties inherent in cross-cultural
translations, and “noise” in communication systems in general. They talked about
communication with children, and about the different kinds of relationships between parents
and children. Moving away from communication and toward relationship issues, they then
talked about what kinds of relationships are characterized by domination and control. The
conversation remained fairly equally divided between deprogrammer(s) and deprogrammee.
Greg then discussed the relationships of some gurus and devotees with their wives and
other devotees, critiquing them for being based on disproportionate amounts of power. Greg
talked about how, when a devotee gets physically ill it is because he is not spiritually
advanced, but when Prabhupada had a toothache, it was because the devotees were not
doing all they spiritually could. Sandy then asked how a Hindu country like India, with strict
dictates regarding celibacy, has one third of the world‟s population.
The deprogramming team again talked at length about ISKCON (and other religions') myths
about masturbation (e.g., ISKCON said you would die, or lose intelligence Curt's Catholic
teachers said he would go blind). Laughing, Sandy noted to Ken, “What difference does all
this make if [according to ISKCON] you're not your body, anyway?” Ken agreed, laughing.
Curt, Sandy, and Ken continued to talk at length about the various guilts and feelings Ken
had about sex while in ISKCON. Ken was told to chant as a means of suppressing his sexual
feelings. He recalled a time, when he spent all day cleaning the temple for a visit by
Gurupada, and when Gurupada arrived, the guru sat down and closed his eyes to chant..and
then promptly fell asleep.
