Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 39
Detour and analysis. With the introduction of the ISKCON concept of maya, the
conversation moved in a new direction. It was about 12:45 am. and Sandy, who had left the
room for a smoke, returned and began to disclose more of his experiences as a member of
a shepherding (Christian) cult. Ken just listened. Sandy's group was very different from the
Krishnas. It was a small conclave led by a charismatic lay-preacher named David Stone,
who exercised considerable direct control over his followers. It did not have the rigid
hierarchy that ISKCON has, nor the membership or the extensive organization. Of course,
the philosophies were also quite different. Ken said little at this point other than to ask
Sandy a few questions about David Stone and to point out the differences between the
Stone group and the Krishnas. He did not seem to be relating to Sandy's comparison. Ken
and Brian next began to discuss the nature of explanations for events and experiences.
Brian noted how explanations for phenomena are temporary we use the best explanations
we have until a better one comes along. At one point in Western history, for example, some
events seemed best explained by postulating the presence of ghosts: “The explanations
might have sufficed at the time, but better explanations were discovered, and they didn't
have to rely on ghosts to explain things.” Ken talked about how science is often inexact too.
The conversation was now clearly characterized by the imparting of objective information.
Ken was also beginning to actively dispute information critical of ISKCON. Greg's rate of
questioning seemed to increase in direct relation to Ken's active use of ISKCON doctrine to
defend his beliefs. In general, most of the conversation seemed to emanate from the
deprogrammers, while most of what Ken was saying came in bursts.
The role of fear. In all totalistic movements, the deprogrammers said, fear plays a big role
in the need to control people. This important point seemed to get lost, however, in a round
of abstract political theory. The conversation seemed almost to lack a center. Greg
apparently sensed this, and he refocused the conversation on the role fear plays in ISKCON
doctrine. He described how controlling his senses and impulses without chanting is not a
problem for him --“I don't have to fight to control myself, and I also don't carry around a
fear that something's going to happen to me in my next life ...or in this life.” He was living
proof of the invalidity of doctrine-induced fears that “if you leave all of that accrued karmic
reaction, stuff will catch up with you.” Ken sat and appeared to be listening. To me, he
seemed, on many occasions, to be agreeing with what Greg said, but these “pockets” of
agreement did not yet seem to generalize into a skeptical attitude. Greg's thoughts may
have moved along a similar path, as he continued to challenge Ken. First, he confronted Ken
on Prabhupada's statement that the sun is closer to the earth than the moon. “Do you
believe that?” he asked with his head cocked and thrust forward toward Ken. Ken backed
away, angry. “When you get right down to it, I don't care” what Prabhupada said about the
sun being closer to the earth than the moon: “It doesn't matter.” Greg would not allow Ken
to get the upper hand, yet he did not respond in like anger. “I think the point is that you're
accepting Prabhupada at one point and then at another point it doesn't matter.”
Sudden progress. An admission. Sandy, Curt, and Bobbi began to talk once more with Ken
about sankirtan, and this time Ken's response was different. He now admitted (to the
deprogrammers or to himself.?) to the use of “transcendental trickery.” He began to relate
some of his own experiences, raising money in trailer parks and from cars. Ken's conning
involved the fraudulent selling of “Indian” paintings to art galleries at one point, he was
even arrested by police. I sat there shocked by Ken's revelations, coming so soon after he
denied any personal wrongdoing during fund-raising. Curt's response surprised me even
more he looked sharply at Ken and speculated aloud to the other deprogrammers: “I
wonder if he's giving us one [a con job] now?” Ken laughed nervously. “No, I'm serious.”
Curt sat back. “Well, you've got to understand our position, we've got to think that way ...
You guys have been taught how to lie ...and be good at it. ...You feel justified.” Apparently,
Curt had also been somewhat surprised by Ken's disclosure. What followed was still more
interesting to me. Curt‟s confrontation, rather than interfering with developing rapport
Detour and analysis. With the introduction of the ISKCON concept of maya, the
conversation moved in a new direction. It was about 12:45 am. and Sandy, who had left the
room for a smoke, returned and began to disclose more of his experiences as a member of
a shepherding (Christian) cult. Ken just listened. Sandy's group was very different from the
Krishnas. It was a small conclave led by a charismatic lay-preacher named David Stone,
who exercised considerable direct control over his followers. It did not have the rigid
hierarchy that ISKCON has, nor the membership or the extensive organization. Of course,
the philosophies were also quite different. Ken said little at this point other than to ask
Sandy a few questions about David Stone and to point out the differences between the
Stone group and the Krishnas. He did not seem to be relating to Sandy's comparison. Ken
and Brian next began to discuss the nature of explanations for events and experiences.
Brian noted how explanations for phenomena are temporary we use the best explanations
we have until a better one comes along. At one point in Western history, for example, some
events seemed best explained by postulating the presence of ghosts: “The explanations
might have sufficed at the time, but better explanations were discovered, and they didn't
have to rely on ghosts to explain things.” Ken talked about how science is often inexact too.
The conversation was now clearly characterized by the imparting of objective information.
Ken was also beginning to actively dispute information critical of ISKCON. Greg's rate of
questioning seemed to increase in direct relation to Ken's active use of ISKCON doctrine to
defend his beliefs. In general, most of the conversation seemed to emanate from the
deprogrammers, while most of what Ken was saying came in bursts.
The role of fear. In all totalistic movements, the deprogrammers said, fear plays a big role
in the need to control people. This important point seemed to get lost, however, in a round
of abstract political theory. The conversation seemed almost to lack a center. Greg
apparently sensed this, and he refocused the conversation on the role fear plays in ISKCON
doctrine. He described how controlling his senses and impulses without chanting is not a
problem for him --“I don't have to fight to control myself, and I also don't carry around a
fear that something's going to happen to me in my next life ...or in this life.” He was living
proof of the invalidity of doctrine-induced fears that “if you leave all of that accrued karmic
reaction, stuff will catch up with you.” Ken sat and appeared to be listening. To me, he
seemed, on many occasions, to be agreeing with what Greg said, but these “pockets” of
agreement did not yet seem to generalize into a skeptical attitude. Greg's thoughts may
have moved along a similar path, as he continued to challenge Ken. First, he confronted Ken
on Prabhupada's statement that the sun is closer to the earth than the moon. “Do you
believe that?” he asked with his head cocked and thrust forward toward Ken. Ken backed
away, angry. “When you get right down to it, I don't care” what Prabhupada said about the
sun being closer to the earth than the moon: “It doesn't matter.” Greg would not allow Ken
to get the upper hand, yet he did not respond in like anger. “I think the point is that you're
accepting Prabhupada at one point and then at another point it doesn't matter.”
Sudden progress. An admission. Sandy, Curt, and Bobbi began to talk once more with Ken
about sankirtan, and this time Ken's response was different. He now admitted (to the
deprogrammers or to himself.?) to the use of “transcendental trickery.” He began to relate
some of his own experiences, raising money in trailer parks and from cars. Ken's conning
involved the fraudulent selling of “Indian” paintings to art galleries at one point, he was
even arrested by police. I sat there shocked by Ken's revelations, coming so soon after he
denied any personal wrongdoing during fund-raising. Curt's response surprised me even
more he looked sharply at Ken and speculated aloud to the other deprogrammers: “I
wonder if he's giving us one [a con job] now?” Ken laughed nervously. “No, I'm serious.”
Curt sat back. “Well, you've got to understand our position, we've got to think that way ...
You guys have been taught how to lie ...and be good at it. ...You feel justified.” Apparently,
Curt had also been somewhat surprised by Ken's disclosure. What followed was still more
interesting to me. Curt‟s confrontation, rather than interfering with developing rapport
