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Ken's Attention. Curt seemed to think it would be helpful for Ken to hear an example of
someone who defected from a totalistic system, so he began to read a testimonial from a
Russian defector. Curt read, and summarized what he considered the most important
points. “He's starting to question. Instead of always bringing it back on himself, which the
philosophy [Communism] demands. He‟s starting to question, “well maybe there‟s
something wrong with the system.” In Russia [as in ISKCON, by implication], Curt noted,
“you're not supposed to openly question ...because the State is held as infallible.” Ken then
related how, if he lived in Russia, he probably would wind up exiled to Siberia. Curt
continued reading the testimonial, stopping periodically to note how Russian totalism is both
similar and dissimilar from ISKCON. While listening to the defector's story, Ken was
tangentially reminded of an ex-Krishna's testimonial and he began to ask critical questions
about him. After briefly defending the ex-Krishna, Curt reminded Ken that they had to get
more focused. The conversation had tended to move from topic to topic, which seemed to
result in Ken's flitting from one thought to another. Ken remarked that he was not “staying
put” (on topic) because he was interested in what the deprogrammers have to say. “But,”
Curt responded, half apologetically and with humor, “we're cramping your style.” Ken
agreed, adding that “flitting” tended to be his style. “You take me for what it (sic] is, you
know.” Curt: “There's no tricks up our sleeves, man ...nobody's bullshitting you, I‟m just
telling you what you're doing.”
Curt's comment, and Ken's reply, were fascinating to me, as they both addressed my
interest in attentional motility. Furthermore, I had predicted that just the opposite would
happen: that motility would increase, not decrease, with time.
Curt noted to Ken that much of what they had been talking about he has experienced
himself or heard before from others. The talk then moved on briefly to some of the
unethical deprogrammings (e.g., reports of sex) Ken had heard about and commented on
previously. Curt claimed that his own policy was to never have sex with deprogrammees
“during or after the deprogramming or 6 months down the road.” At this point I noted
another pattern: when Curt talked, Ken mostly listened, and now Curt and the other
deprogrammers seemed to account for over half of the conversation. Although Ken was not
as verbally active at this time, when he did talk, I noticed what seemed to be an increase in
the amount of self-disclosure. As Ken self-disclosed, Greg seemed to be conveying an
attitude of close and intense listening, responding with what appeared to be a high degree
of empathy.
The conversation returned again to justifying the need for security measures.
Deprogrammers have to take precautions, Curt noted, because “nobody ever announces
they are going to escape.” In making this statement, there seemed to be no trace of anger
or condemnation in Curt‟s voice, which in turn seemed to prompt Ken to confess that
despite his promise to the contrary, he too had made some plans to escape. To my surprise,
everyone laughed good- naturedly at this disclosure, perhaps because it had confirmed their
initial suspicions. The laughter also seemed to relieve tension. The deprogramming was, to
some degree, a cat-and-mouse game and now everyone could acknowledge it. When the
laughter died down, however, the talk grew more serious again, as it returned to the
Krishna gun caches. Curt read an official ISKCON statement that “it is against the official
policy of the ISKCON to keep any stockpiles of guns or any munitions”. Ken had trouble
hearing this statement and made Curt read the policy statement four times. Curt did not
stop with this statement, however. As was his style, when he saw a “chink” in Ken's
cognitive armor, he overwhelmed it with information. He continued with several other news
reports of gun possession, and then told Ken about Dara Coy's own experience.
Impressions. I have discovered that there comes a point in many deprogrammings when
relatively secret internal documents and books are shared and examined. The timing is
important because the cultist must be open to the information, and yet unperturbed at this

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 49
point by how the material was obtained (generally, it is spirited away from the cults
leadership). Thus, much of this material is “saved” for the right time. Most but not all
veteran Krishnas have heard this material but they see it and/or understand it only through
Krishna eyes, Curt told me. In a deprogramming, Curt waits until the outer “armor shell”
has been pierced, and then he reintroduces this material to the deprogrammee, hoping that
the latter will be able to look at the material from a fresher perspective.
One such example: the Krishna book “Sell Books, Sell Books, Sell Books.” There are only
about 1,000 copies of this book, and it is impossible to obtain it outside the upper echelons
of the movement. Ken and Curt examined it with great care. In it, a Krishna guru spells out
just how important it is to “sell” books in order to raise money for ISKCON. He spells out in
writing how to engage in transcendental trickery,” how raising money is all-important, and
how ISKCON goals justify illegal activities. Next, everyone read carefully Prabhupada‟s own
writings that predicted how ISKCON would use guns if necessary to kill off those they could
not convert. In this manner, the discussion centered once again on pointing out the
contradictions between reality and what is promised by ISKCON.
Introducing Lifton: Process, confrontation and push. If there is a “standard”
deprogramming sequence, the first part would be summarized in this manner: (a) establish
rapport (b) illuminate discrepancies between cult persona/doctrine and cult reality/practice
(c) cultist becomes puzzled by how she was “conned” into denying discrepancies (d)
explain the denial of discrepancies and acceptance of “cons” as the inevitable result of
brainwashing (e) formal declaration of exiting (“the snap”). In Ken's deprogramming, the
discrepancies were being accepted by the cultist, and now he began to wonder aloud how, if
so much of the Krishna doctrine was false, he could have come to believe so strongly in it.
Curt took this question as his cue to introduce Lifton's (1961) theory of thought reform or
“brainwashing” (again, I was told later that the presentation of this material must be
properly “timed”).
The neighbor continued to mow his lawn. I grew frustrated and impatient with this
interference. Brian and Greg left the room for lunch at about 1:30, which left Curt, Sandy,
and Ken (and me) in the room. On the way out, Greg asked Ken what he wanted to eat, and
he returned shortly with some fruit and nuts, which Ken ate very spartanly, as he had done
the previous night.
Curt began to go over Chapter 22 from Lifton's (1961) work on thought reform, and
although Ken seemed to be trying to listen, he also seemed to be having trouble
understanding the material. It took only a few minutes for Curt to recognize Ken's difficulty.
He suggested that Ken try to get some more sleep, and Ken said, yes, he would like to nap.
I noted to myself that Ken still seemed to be avoiding chanting his rounds. But Ken
remained driven by his many questions, and so the deprogramming continued. Ken began
to ask questions about the process of deprogramming itself. It was now 1:39 p.m. Curt was
explaining again how long the deprogramming would last. Curt was still wondering if Ken
was trying to con them. I listened in disbelief as Curt raised this concern. Yet he mentioned
it with complete nonchalance as though he had rehearsed and repeated this line hundreds
of times before, and it now carried no personally insulting connotations. Reminding Curt
that he always had doubts about ISKCON, Ken repeated his hope that the deprogramming
would be over soon. Despite the “progress” Ken had demonstrated, Curt remained skeptical
even of Ken's “doubts”: “I have to tell you this, though, and don't take it personally. But I'm
sitting back thinking “this is all coming out very spontaneous and everything else” but at the
same time, me being in the position that I'm in, I'm always sitting back watching for
somebody bullshitting. Because I've been conned by the best of them or tried to be conned
by the best of them. And I don't want that to take away from what you've been sharing,
but in the back of my mind that possibility's there and I have to look for it” For Curt, Ken
may have opened up and agreed too readily with too much of what they were saying, and