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much more sleep than he was used to in ISKCON, finally seemed to be growing tired. The
deprogrammers suggested a nap, and this time Ken readily agreed.
Ken's attempt to nap ultimately failed. He complained of being too restless. “My mind is
racing ...there's just so much that I want to know.” The deprogrammers put the VCR back
into action. We watched and discussed Greg Stern's appearance, opposite ISKCON devotees
and apologists, on several other talk shows. As the Krishnas sidestepped questions and
occasionally lied, Ken actively pointed out what was going on, or what the Krishnas might
have been thinking.
Ken challenges the deprogrammers. It was almost 5:30 p.m. At this point, Brian and
Stephanie came back in, and began to discuss Rehab with Ken. Brian's wife talked at length
about her own experiences in Iowa. Throughout the deprogramming, Ken pointed out
discrepancies between his own experiences and the experiences of other former devotees,
as related by Greg or the other deprogrammers. Once they no longer believed Ken to be
hiding his true feelings from them, the deprogrammers generally listened to Ken's
disagreements without defensively trying to talk him out of them. Now, apparently in
response to the underlying suggestion that he attend Rehab, Ken began to criticize some of
the anti-ISKCON material he had seen over the past few days. He noted that different
temples have different standards, and that cold showers are not required in all the temples.
As for himself, he had taken cold showers his first year as a devotee, but then when he “fell
back into maya” he started taking warm showers. Ken still used ISKCON terms to describe
some of his behaviors and experiences. I began wondering if Ken was “backsliding” here.
Ken did almost all of the talking now on the “other side” Brian's wife was doing most of the
conversing. In the middle of this sometimes heated debate, the phone rang, and I went out
to the kitchen with Greg. Curt, Greg, and I discussed Ken's progress as the debate in the
den continued. Ken's conversation was a mixture of self-disclosing and citing doctrine. Ken
asked Stephanie about her experiences in the Unification Church. Stephanie described her
experiences in Rehab in glowing terms, emphasizing the relaxed atmosphere and the degree
of autonomy there.
The deprogrammers respond. As Ken showed increasing interest in the Moonist doctrine
and how it compared with ISKCON's theology, Brian began to note some of the differences
in the two cults' views of women. Although both denigrate women, in the Moonists, women
can be aggressive and can be elevated within their own ranks until they have a lot of power.
Theologically, this is because the “spiritual family” concept in Moon thought is strong, and
the pure mother has an important, if subservient, role within the family. In ISKCON, women
have only a subservient role. Their status is even more inferior than that of Moonist women.
At this point, Sandy reentered the conversation. Curt and Ken talked in greater detail about
Jayatirtha's expulsion from ISKCON. Curt noted that, although ISKCON did finally remove
Jayatirtha, it was not in response to corruption but rather in response to the adverse
publicity and embarrassment being caused by Jayatirtha. Curt then read a litany of criminal
charges (taken from newspaper) against Krishnas, and a few articles in which justice
officials noted that convictions are difficult to obtain because ISKCON moves the accused
Krishnas out of the law enforcement agency's jurisdiction, or they change their names,
malting them difficult to track. He implied that ISKCON was guilty of far more crimes than
the conviction rates of its members actually indicate. After reading the long list Curt seemed
to challenge Ken.
“But these are all coincidences, huh?” In a confrontational tone that surprised me, Curt then
told Ken that he could have been an unknowing accomplice to drug smuggling, if he had
gone to India. Ken noted that he was supposed to go to India in the near future. Curt then
told Ken about a local devotee who was arrested for smuggling drugs in typewriters. On her
was a letter from her temple describing how to pack the typewriter so that they would not

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 69
be detected (although drugs were not mentioned, the letter did say “make sure it is
camouflaged”). Curt asked Ken if he would have questioned a direct order to bring in
something from India without going through customs. Ken replied in the negative he would
not have questioned it. Ken looked awed. He wondered why he had never heard these tales
while inside ISKCON. Curt explained that the information was closed, and the relatively low-
level devotees were not involved in planning such escapades.
Analysis of the challenge. At this point in the process it seemed that Curt was content to
allow the other deprogrammers to do much of the actual talking, while he watched over
them and made sure nothing got out of hand. Following the second day, the
deprogramming had become somewhat more relaxed and informal with an emphasis on
video and audiotapes. When Curt overheard Ken criticizing some of the anti-ISKCON
material, he decided it was time to challenge the deprogrammee with what he thought
really mattered, ISKCON's criminal behavior and disregard for both the individual's and
society's mores. The underlying message: whether or not Ken was coerced into taking cold
showers was a trivial point. The possibility of Ken's backsliding, however, was not a trivial
point, and this was not lost on Curt.
There was an additional issue that concerned Curt, and added to his vigilant stance with
Ken. Ken had often violated ISKCON rules, and ISKCON to a degree tolerated this deviant
behavior. Among deprogrammers, ISKCON had a reputation for being one of the most rigid
cults, with a strict set of rules that, for initiated members, were very difficult to violate
without feeling tremendous guilt. Although Curt did not possess formal psychiatric
diagnostic skills, he knew that Ken's rebelliousness in ISKCON might be a sign, not of strong
individualism, but of possible anti-social tendencies. This meant that Ken could be more
difficult to “completely” deprogram than the “average” Krishna devotee. This also meant
that Curt would have to work extra hard to ensure there would be no backsliding. (Curt
seemed to be correct- A year after his own deprogramming, Ken would assist another
deprogrammer on a number of Krishna deprogrammings his deprogramming team leader
would tell me that it sometimes seemed they were deprogramming Ken all over again in
addition to their actual deprogrammee.)
Fourth Day: Evening
The deprogrammers push. Curt continued to remind Ken of ISKCON's pattern of anti-
social behavior. He read from a Krishna flier describing ISKCON as a “contemporary
movement ...this is not a religion.” On the television talk shows we had been watching,
however, the ISKCON spokesman consistently referred to the Hare Krishna movement as
“an age-old religion,” thereby branding its critics anti-religious or anti-Hindu. Ken, wanting
to know the title and origin of the flier, asked Curt “what is that called?” Curt responded
harshly: “It‟s called saying whatever you want to fit the situation ...They are [such liars]!”
Brian joined in, confronting ISKCON astronomy and mathematics, noting that if Hindu
cosmology is so accurate and Western cosmology is a sham, then why is navigation based
on Greek mathematics mid cosmology? Why did the Romans colonize Europe and then
Europeans colonize North America. Why didn't India do it? This argument was too abstract
and somewhat lost on Ken. There were two conversations going on again. Brian was talking
with Ken, while Curt talked with Sandy. Both conversations were focused on debunking
ISKCON doctrine, although Brian presented Ken with abstract arguments and logic, trying to
explain how science processes, and how theories become facts. Ken cited ISKCON doctrine
on the big bang theory of the creation of the universe: “if you throw a stick of dynamite into
the kitchen, will order or chaos result from the explosion?” Brian tried to address “standard”
ISKCON criticism of post -Einsteinian astrophysics, but Ken was unable to follow him.
As Ken continued to discuss cosmology and theology with Brian, the talk became the most
abstract since the deprogramming began. (Brian later realized he wasn't getting through,