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and materials. Some of these thoughts were not new while a member, Ken had suppressed
them. Greg related that he had suppressed similar thoughts when he was in ISKCON. Ken
then mentioned that he had some dreams last night. Curt, noting the import Ken appeared
to be assigning to his dreams, began to warn against interpreting dreams as though they
were messages from the spiritual world telling him to go back to ISKCON. A general
discussion of the interpretation of dreams ensued. In the background, Ken's mother began
whisking eggs (to make more scrambled eggs), and I went into the kitchen to see if I could
help. As I took over some of the food preparation, Risa began to clean pots and pans. She
listened to her son, yet her activity level made it clear that she could not devote undivided
attention to him. She later told me that she had considerable difficulty listening to ISKCON
philosophy, even when it was criticized it upset her too much.
The conversation remained focused on cult issues. Brian came downstairs, and began
comparing ISKCON doctrine with Moonist doctrine. I interrupted the conversation to ask if
Ken would object to some of the deprogrammers eating bacon in front of him. Ken replied
that it would not bother him, despite the fact that “bacon is full of chemicals.”
The conversation became focused on Ken‟s pre-cult past, with Greg and Ken comparing high
school memories, and led naturally to a discussion of how they got involved in ISKCON, and
their family backgrounds. Greg noted that their “high schools were rivals...” The talk here
was casual, and took place in the kitchen, with people drifting in and out of the conversation
with Ken. Curt noted the anti-Krishna lyrics in “I Am the Walrus.” Greg then led several
people into spontaneously singing this song. Curt broke in and asked who wanted to eat
eggs. Most of the ongoing conversation with Ken was between Ken and Greg. Curt did most
of the talking with Ken's mother, about the cooking. The spontaneous singing of the Beatles
song led Ken into a reverie as he related some of the fun he had in ISKCON, when he was
allowed to sing and dance. Sandy subtly redirected Ken's yearnings, by asking him about
his taste in music prior to ISKCON. Ken liked folk and classical rock (“like Judy Collins,
Renaissance”), and the Grateful Dead. Greg talked about some of the great music festivals
and concerts of the early and mid Seventies. They also discussed the spiritual influences in
some rock groups (e.g., Mahavishnu Orchestra). Ken's mother drifted in and out of the
conversation as she began to serve brunch. As everyone was seated, the talk grew more
orderly and more clearly focused again on Ken. At this point, I noticed a distinct difference
in the nature of the conversation. Previously, all the deprogrammers were focused on Ken,
with occasional “lapses” into smaller, concurrent and independent conversations. Now, one
or two people usually talked with Ken while other people talked among themselves, with
occasional “lapses” into the prior “Ken-focused” mode. As the speakers split off into
separate dyads and triads, the talk more closely resembled casual or .normal” conversation
(Allen &Guy, 1974).
I busied myself with helping prepare food, and serving. Curt asked Ken about the last non-
Krishna book he mad. it turned out that Ken had not read a non-Krishna book in years. Ken
talked about how he felt guilty when he (often) thought about non-ISKCON material With
Brian, they discussed how the Moonist indoctrination proms (with the Divine Principle) never
left any time to check references to the Bible. In cults, logic is reversed. The normal
process of logic is to gather information and then to come to a conclusion. [In cults] what
happens is [they coerce you to] come to a conclusion first, and then, if you have the time,
you can look up the information that will back up that conclusion.” Meanwhile, Moonist
doctrine distorts history, and chanting and prayer is used to stop any doubts. Ken noted
that in ISKCON, authorities give themselves the authority to appoint themselves the
authority [i.e., as Sandy put it, “if you don't believe me, just ask me”].
Ken, Greg, and Curt decided to eat poolside. As I walked past the den where Brian was
sitting, he asked if I wanted his thoughts on the process of deprogramming. I agreed
readily. In a few minutes, Curt came in and, overhearing Brian's conversation, decided to

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 61
contribute some of his own thoughts. About 45 minutes later, Ken and Greg returned it had
become somewhat windy and cold outside. Ken and Brian began talking generally about
religious criticism, literature, and history (e.g., the history of monotheism in Egypt). As I
listened, I thought about what Brian was doing in light of his thoughts on the
deprogramming process. The goal here appeared to be to expose Ken to the idea that there
is a great deal of breadth and depth in religious thought and history. The two engaged in a
prolonged discussion of the birth of Christianity, and the “psychohistory” of some famous
religious leaders, including Christ. At this point, and appearing somewhat frustrated, Ken
expressed his wish to avoid all organized religion now. Sandy came into the conversation
with a brief story about a Moonist who, while taking a break during her deprogramming,
accidentally turned on Saturday Night Live and heard an anti-Moon skit. This sparked Ken's
renewed interest (in general, almost any discussion involving females grabbed his
attention). The discussion quickly gravitated toward ISKCON views of women, sex, and
“animal desires” in general. As in the past, talk about sex and impulses resulted in joking.
But for Curt and Sandy, humor was usually a means to an end, or a temporary tension-
breaker. Almost as quickly as the joking began, they returned to a more serious discussion
of various religions' views of intimacy, sex, and love.
New interpretations. As they talked, I noted what appeared to be another shift in the
quality of Ken's conversation he seemed to be doing a lot of independent thinking now. He
began to reinterpret detailed aspects of the ISKCON philosophy, while considering the
possibility that the philosophy might have “negative” meaning. He began to wonder aloud
about the possibility that translations of Hindu scripture might not always be accurate, while
literal translations might not make sense. Brian pointed out, for example, that if one literally
translated an Eskimo's speech, the English-speaking listener would rapidly grow confused,
as Eskimos always refer to themselves in the third person.
As a process, most of the conversation this morning and early afternoon seemed more
overtly geared toward pending Ken with alternative hypotheses and explanations, and
different perspectives on information he already seemed to possess. The theme that unified
these discussions was not to “positively” persuade toward a theology, but rather to give
additional reasons for negating Krishna theology.
From this standpoint, Ken and Brian discussed difficulties inherent in cross-cultural
translations, and “noise” in communication systems in general. They talked about
communication with children, and about the different kinds of relationships between parents
and children. Moving away from communication and toward relationship issues, they then
talked about what kinds of relationships are characterized by domination and control. The
conversation remained fairly equally divided between deprogrammer(s) and deprogrammee.
Greg then discussed the relationships of some gurus and devotees with their wives and
other devotees, critiquing them for being based on disproportionate amounts of power. Greg
talked about how, when a devotee gets physically ill it is because he is not spiritually
advanced, but when Prabhupada had a toothache, it was because the devotees were not
doing all they spiritually could. Sandy then asked how a Hindu country like India, with strict
dictates regarding celibacy, has one third of the world‟s population.
The deprogramming team again talked at length about ISKCON (and other religions') myths
about masturbation (e.g., ISKCON said you would die, or lose intelligence Curt's Catholic
teachers said he would go blind). Laughing, Sandy noted to Ken, “What difference does all
this make if [according to ISKCON] you're not your body, anyway?” Ken agreed, laughing.
Curt, Sandy, and Ken continued to talk at length about the various guilts and feelings Ken
had about sex while in ISKCON. Ken was told to chant as a means of suppressing his sexual
feelings. He recalled a time, when he spent all day cleaning the temple for a visit by
Gurupada, and when Gurupada arrived, the guru sat down and closed his eyes to chant..and
then promptly fell asleep.