Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 32
deprogramming by eating meat or having sex with a woman vegetarianism and celibacy
are of paramount importance to the Krishnas. He then reminded his mother of his planned
missionary trip to Puerto Rico and demanded to be taken to the airport so he could leave
right away.
As they approached the Epsteins' house, Ken was told that he was being taken to a friend of
his mother, located in a Philadelphia suburb. The destination surprised him. He expected to
be taken to Ohio, erroneously believing that all deprogrammings were done at an Ohio
rehab. Curt and Sandy explained that the deprogramming would give him the opportunity to
study what the Krishnas “were really all about” without interference from the Krishnas. He
could examine documents that might have been withheld from him, and he could re-
evaluate the meaning of his belief system and whether or not the Krishnas really practiced
what they preached. There would be opportunities to share experiences with former
Krishnas as well as with former members of other cults. They would take a close look at
ISKCON‟s doctrine as well as at other material, and they would watch some videotape: and
listen to some audiotapes. Ken would be able to sleep and eat when and as much as he
wanted. When he asked how long the deprogramming would last, Ken was told that if, after
a week, he was still convinced that ISKCON was the true religion, he could go back to his
Krishna temple. (This is in sharp variance with other reports of what is said at the early
phase of -.deprogramming. Other deprogrammers have been quoted as saying “it will take
as long as it takes.”) Sandy later explained to me that by being told what to expect, and
then actually having these expectations fulfilled, the cultist discovers that the
deprogrammers can be trusted to keep their word. Curt echoed these statements by noting
that he is as honest as possible with his clients. Lying or providing false expectations can
“blow the whole thing,” he stated.
Beginnings. I asked about the current status of the deprogramming, and Curt told me that
Ken was talking, which he interpreted as a good sign. He stated that Ken had agreed to stay
and listen to the deprogrammers for at least the day, which seemed to imply that Ken was
now a voluntary participant in the deprogramming. Curt noted that Ken was freely
expressing a few “pockets” of compartmentalized doubts about ISKCON, but until Curt knew
Ken better, it would be difficult to tell if these doubts were genuine or if they were just
attempts to “fake it” and obtain an early release. Noting that he had not been successfully
“fooled” in his last 50 cases, Curt felt confident “I just let them go on, and if they're faking,
they eventually trip over their own lies.”
When I asked, Curt informed me that he did not think it would be a good idea for me to go
upstairs yet Ken might feel overwhelmed. He agreed, however, to take my tape recorder
upstairs and tape for me. I set the recorder up, and Curt went upstairs.
At this point, Brian, who had been sitting security outside the bedroom being used as the
main deprogramming room (hereafter referred to as (“Ken's room”), came down. We had
just met a few days ago, at the Northeast regional CFF conference. Since I did not know
that he was going to be working on this case, I was pleasantly surprised to see him. After
saying hello and explaining that he was just working security, Brian expressed his opinion
that, at this point, Ken might be trying to “con” the deprogrammers. Brian then went back
upstairs, to his “post.”
As I awaited permission to meet Ken, I talked with Daniel Epstein about his experiences in
ISKCON. Risa and Ellen were busy preparing a large dinner. Preparing food was to be a
central activity for the two, especially Risa. She told me later that it was the only way she
could maintain control of her anxiety in the situation. To feed the Epstein family (or parts of
it, anyway-- I rarely saw the family all together), the deprogrammers, the security team,
and any visitors, the meals were large, and they took around two hours to prepare, with
another hour to two hours for cleaning up. A wide variety of food was typically served,

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 33
usually with one main meat dish, bread(s), several varieties of vegetables and fruits, and
several desserts.
Maintaining this much food on hand was no simple task. In the washroom bags of groceries
were placed on the floor, on the dishwasher, on a couch, or whatever else was handy. In
the refrigerator them the team kept milk, juice, and usually one or two six-packs of beer.
There was usually a bag or two of purely “junk” food. pretzels mostly, but Twinkies, cookies,
Devil Dogs (box-size), and other cake goods as well. This refrigerator seemed “reserved” for
the team alone. The kitchen refrigerator was where the “serious” food and the Epstein
family's groceries were kept. Thus, breakfast usually came out of both refrigerators (since
various team members woke and ate at various times, while the Epsteins came and went
separately in general), while dinners usually cane out of the kitchen refrigerator. Risa and
Ellen seemed to do most of the grocery shopping. Through occasional trips to convenience
stores, Curt or Sandy resupplied the “junk” food, minor provisions (e.g., juice or milk),
cigarettes, and beer.
First Day: Evening
Gaining access. That first night, Risa, Ellen and Daniel Epstein and I had a light dinner
consisting of salad, bread, and cheese the deprogrammers and security men came down
later for some plates of food which they then brought back upstairs. I still remained
downstairs. Daniel and I continued to talk until his father was ready to take him to the
airport. At about 7:00 p.m., Greg Stem arrived, and, after politely stating that he had
already eaten dinner, went right upstairs. I went upstairs with extra tapes, to check on the
status of the audiotaping. The door to Ken's room was slightly ajar, so I peeked in to see
what he looked like. Ken was thin and serious-looking, and he was wearing a cap that
concealed his nearly clean-shaven head and his sika (the ponytail-like lock of hair on the
back of a male devotee's head that is symbolic of being initiated into the Krishnas). I still
felt somewhat tense, and very much the “outsider.” As for Ken, I was told that he still had
not eaten anything since the morning.
What I saw on my left was a small, square room. Ken was seated on the bed, on my left,
toward the end. Curt, Greg, and Sandy were also there. Greg was seated on the floor near a
plant stand, with his back leaned against the wall. Curt also sat on the floor, somewhat
close to the bed while Sandy sat on the floor, against the left wall, perpendicular to Greg.
Brian sat outside the room, reading a book, near the stairway to the ground floor. Curt did
not seem to be taping yet. As I waited to be invited to enter Ken's room, I continued to
listen to the ongoing conversation. I could discern most of what was being said. Curt was
talking. He had a looseleaf book open to the middle, and he was reading from an enclosed
article to Ken. A copy of the Bhagavad Gita, the Hindu/Krishna holy book, was also opened
up, on the floor. Pages in the looseleaf and the “Gita” were outlined in pen and in yellow
highlighter. Ken seemed to be interacting in a cooperative and even pleasant, although
distant manner. He gently asked questions, clearly debating with Curt. Ken did not seem to
be relating Curt‟s information to his own experience he only used third person pronouns.
But he continued to question Curt, primarily about the validity of the latter's sources of
information. Ken soon became somewhat louder and more confrontational. Curt tried to
answer most of Ken's questions, avoiding some of the more detailed questions, such as
where commas appeared in a quote. Curt seemed very patient with these questions,
approaching impatience only once, when he remarked to Ken that “you're so caught up in
this...” As Curt continued to talk, Ken seemed to be taken off-guard by the sheer quantity
and critical nature of information Curt was relaying. Curt was pointing out that that Krishnas
claim that they are purer than other religions, yet they are involved in a number of illegal
activities, such as gun-running and drug smuggling Ken seemed to be listening, but he
continued to answer in the third person with a low voice but fast pace: “Well, Krishna
says...” Later, Curt would explain to me that this was his first somewhat mild, confrontation.