Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 46
acknowledged the existence of a very small number of ex-Krishnas with violent tendencies,
the underlying point was somehow not lost on Ken. One or two vigilante actions do not
justify the vast ISKCON arms caches, and in fact these caches existed long before the
“vigilante threat.” Ken finally admitted his doubts about the guns, and about the fact that
these arms are not registered, as required by law: That‟s a point I actually was quite
embarrassed about. As soon as this was said, however, Ken returned to defending ISKCON,
repeating that the guns were for defensive purposes only. Brian, who had been listening to
the dialog between Greg and Ken, responded with a confrontation of ISKCON's true intent.
He noted that the reason ISKCON does not legally register their guns is because they
cannot register automatic weapons, which are illegal for civilians to possess. Ken seemed
surprised. “Automatic weapons are definitely illegal, huh?” Sandy quickly directed Ken to
the logical conclusion, that in fact the ISKCON armaments are for offensive, not defensive,
purposes: “It‟s not just that they are illegal, it's why they are illegal ...That‟s where the
government draws the line ...between self-defense and protection and aggression ...[An
M-16 is) an offensive weapon.” Moreover, isn't it odd that a movement that talks so much
about peace and the sanctity of life has so many guns, and that it would care more about
the lives of animals than about people. Ken became subdued: “Well, that is pretty sad. I
gotta agree with you. There's no argument there.” Without either seeming to agree or
disagree, Ken reported that the Krishnas “justify their use of weapons, even if obtained
illegally, because it’s [the attacks on ISKCON] religious persecution.” Sandy seemed to
press on: “Exactly!, It‟s OK! Anything done in God's name is just and moral.”
More progress. This time Ken did not retreat from his critical stance. He instead repeated
that these were doubts he had had for a long time. Sandy repeated an earlier point of his,
perhaps again in an attempt to prevent an onset of guilt that might interfere with Ken's
ability to accept fully the conclusion of the armaments discussion. “Well, the truth is, there
are very few [Krishnas] who don't have doubts. Most are just afraid to express [them].” Ken
grew pensive, and then began to talk about his relationship to his guru, which was followed
by a more general discussion of how cults are set up so that gurus or spiritual masters are
seen as “God's delegated authority, and to go against God's delegated authority is sin.”
Twisting around a typical cultic question and demand to underscore his criticism, Sandy
asked, “Is there anything that a devotee wouldn't do that a spiritual master asked him to?”
Ken gave the typical, required answer, but clearly as an extension of Sandy's critique:
“When a guru tells you to jump, you jump, he tells you to dance, you dance.” Sandy
continued. “He says “jump”, you say “how high?”.' “If a guru tells you something to do, you
listen to what he says,” Ken replied. Sandy: “As if it were coming from God.” Ken: “Yeah.”
In my notes, I commented that the conversation seemed to remain equally dominated by
deprogrammers and cultist. Sandy continued with his questioning: “Can a spiritual master
make a mistake?” Ken: “I don't think so.” Greg now jumped in, with force: “No! It says so
right here [picks up an ISKCON book].” Sandy: “Did Prabhupada make a mistake when he
picked the Council of 12 [gurus]?” The point here was that he clearly had picked corrupt
gurus (e.g., Hansadutta, who had given devotees LSD and liberally used the drug himself).
Sandy again provided the logical conclusion: “He made a mistake, so how can he be a pure
devotee?”
At this point, Ken was clearly expressing his doubts, and he now seemed comfortable
expressing the contradictions inherent to the ISKCON movement. Although he had not
“regressed” or retreated to being as defensive as he had appeared earlier that morning, he
now seemed to cling to his desire to chant the Hare Krishna mantra: “I was happier
chanting Hare Krishna on my own, before I became a devotee,” he stated, sadly shaking his
head. On the surface, Ken may have been vying to separate this centralmost ISKCON
practice from the now-acknowledged corruption of the ISKCON movement, but the
deprogrammers were steadfast in their belief that the Krishna chant was/is central to

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 47
ISKCON's technology of mind control, and would at the least feed into any ongoing guilt and
ambivalence Ken might have about leaving the group. For the deprogramming to be a
success, Ken would have to give up chanting as well as his devotee status.
Ken turned to revealing in greater detail how he first became a devotee. Ken now seemed
to be talking more than half of the time. He talked of his recruitment in terms of
entrapment. “At this point, the string was already knotted and I was being pulled toward
the temple.” Sandy nodded as he heard these familiar words. That‟s what we often hear “I
never decided to join, I just wound up in it.” Ken: “Yeah, just like I never planned to go to
Boston (to be initiated].” Ken's attention shifted again. He asked Brian about what ISKCON
told him regarding the sexual education of children in Sweden. Ken: “Is it true children are
taught how to have sex?” This may have been one of the first times that Ken spontaneously
asked a deprogrammer to validate or invalidate information about something not directly
related to ISKCON in order to test it against reality. Toward noon, Ken seemed to be talking
about 60 to 70% of the time.
The Second Day: Afternoon
At around 12:00 noon, Curt entered Ken's room for the first time this second day. Again,
there were preliminary greetings and questions about Ken's needs: How is Ken feeling, is he
hungry (stilll “no”), is there anything he needs to feel more comfortable?
At this point the Epsteins' neighbor began to mow the lawn, which, I found out later, would
make it completely impossible to understand large segments of the tapes over the next 2
hours. During this time, Greg, Curt, Brian, and Ken went over some very fine points in the
Gita they compared some of the Gita's claims to known historical fact and common sense.
Curt pointed out that Lord Krishna supposedly had the power to destroy entire cities with a
thought, and elsewhere the Gita states that to engage in such destruction would be a form
of saving souls. Yet if Krishna had both the power and the justification for ruling the world,
why did he in fact not rule the world? Something, therefore must be false: Either the Gita is
mistaken in claiming that destruction in the name of saving souls is justified, or Krishna did
not really have the power the Gita claims he had. Either way, the Gita had less than the
“complete” truth.
The idea of judging a religion “by its fruits” is a common deprogramming tactic, borrowed
liberally from a Biblical admonition. The discussion became concerned with the living
conditions in India. Ken initiated this train of thought by comparing ISKCON theology to
Buddhism and other -religions. Curt then asked him about the “fruits” of the cultures in
which these religions flourish, especially India, which is quite impoverished. Ken countered
by arguing that Indians are more satisfied spiritually. How can this statement be proven (or
disproven)? Curt did not rise to this challenge yet, but instead began discussing the
revisionist-historical belief that the climate of the area may have been responsible for the
rise of the passive Hindu and Buddhist religions, which may have in turn fed into these
cultures' lack of progress. Curt, “Look at the end result of these religions. “India is a good
example of what we'd have to look forward to” if ISKCON took over. Curt‟s argument
seemed centered around the following: according to the Krishnas, India is the most
spiritually advanced country in the world (universe). The Krishnas claim that spiritual purity
and advancement will result in physical health. Yet, as Curt noted, a high degree of
spirituality certainly does not seem to be correlated with healthy bodies and a long life in
India, which has one of the highest infant mortality rates and shortest life expectancies in
the world. ISKCON, of course, says that chanting Hare Krishna and being spiritual will
assure physical health. Curt‟s reliance on logical thinking was clearly in evidence. Ken,
however, continued to defend and support India and Hinduism in general.