Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 51
On an overt level if Ken took personal offense, he certainly did not show it in any way I
could detect Curt seemed very, very invested in Ken at this point in bringing up the issue of
possibly conning the deprogrammers, Curt certainly appeared vulnerable and open. He
seemed to be leveling with Ken, yet not in a punitive or condescending way. And Ken
seemed to respond to the emotional as well as the intellectual content of Curt‟s message.
He replied that he did not feel put down by the deprogrammers, although he often felt put
down by his fellow Krishnas. I noted to myself that his mother had told us that Ken's father
(Risa and Ken‟s father are divorced) tended to put Ken down a lot -that the elder often
called his son a “dummy.”
The mood between deprogrammer and cultist had by this point become intensely personal,
and Curt began to share, in greater detail, some of his own experiences leaving a totalistic
drug rehab center. “The last thing I want to do is...rip the rug out from under you and then
say “now you're on your own.” ...Maybe we can become friends.” Curt described how he
had gotten close to and remained in touch and even socialized with many of his former
deprogrammees, including Greg Stern. Curt: “I'm not gonna just sit here and say I'm gonna
be your friend”... [deprogramming means sharing yourself] as you share information.”
I found this exchange fascinating. Curt may have been trying to enhance Ken's transference
as a “reward” for Ken's “good behavior.” Or the transference may have deepened as Ken's
doubts grew and developed, and as personal information was concurrently revealed. Curt
also seemed to be using the deepening relationship as his justification for wanting Ken to
stay as long as necessary, on a voluntary basis.
The conversation now returned to Lifton. After some discussion, Curt realized that Ken was
having some difficulty concentrating. He reminded Ken that he should get some more sleep.
Ken agreed. He thanked Curt, Curt left the room and by 1:57 p.m., Ken had fallen asleep.
He slept until 5:07 p.m. that afternoon. I left the room along with Curt, and went
downstairs to make some notes and relax a bit. Curt and Sandy left shortly thereafter to run
some errands.
After Ken's nap. Ken awoke from his nap sounding refreshed and even vibrant. Greg
entered the room, and he and Ken began talking about the former's first days as an ISKCON
initiate. Ken digressed briefly, talking about Chuck Norris's Martial Arts lifestyle. The
conversation was low-key and personal. As the two compared stories about temple life (Ken
even confirmed some rumors Greg had heard), Bobbi entered the room with some
vegetables in tomato sauce. Ken had begun to eat when I came in. Greg continued to share
anecdotes from his own experiences.
Curt then brought in a testimonial tape from a former Krishna, “John.” John had a British
accent, and as Curt set up the tape, Greg clowned around with an excellent imitation of
John Lennon. At this point I noted that Ken and the deprogrammers seemed to be
participating in the conversation about equally. Ken then talked about his impressions of the
founder of transcendental meditation, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Greg replied with some of the
recent allegations and controversies surrounding the Maharishi. The pattern of following a
digression with a redirection of Ken's attention back onto ISKCON had by now been firmly
established. After briefly discussing the Mahesh Yogi's transgressions, Greg refocused the
conversation by tying the Maharishi's contradictions to those of ISKCON's founder. He
related Hansadutta's stories of Prabhupada's fits of anger, even though Prabhupada always
preached against anger. Greg then described an encounter with Prabhupada in which
Prabhupada demonstrated that he knew nothing about the young devotee: “He didn't even
know my name.” Yet ISKCON philosophy states the pure devotee (Prabhupada) knows
everything. As Greg and Ken talked, Curt continued to work on setting up the tape.
Although Ken seemed to be thinking and considering, he still clung to his desire to remain a
devotee, stating that he would no longer attend a Krishna temple or socialize with the
On an overt level if Ken took personal offense, he certainly did not show it in any way I
could detect Curt seemed very, very invested in Ken at this point in bringing up the issue of
possibly conning the deprogrammers, Curt certainly appeared vulnerable and open. He
seemed to be leveling with Ken, yet not in a punitive or condescending way. And Ken
seemed to respond to the emotional as well as the intellectual content of Curt‟s message.
He replied that he did not feel put down by the deprogrammers, although he often felt put
down by his fellow Krishnas. I noted to myself that his mother had told us that Ken's father
(Risa and Ken‟s father are divorced) tended to put Ken down a lot -that the elder often
called his son a “dummy.”
The mood between deprogrammer and cultist had by this point become intensely personal,
and Curt began to share, in greater detail, some of his own experiences leaving a totalistic
drug rehab center. “The last thing I want to do is...rip the rug out from under you and then
say “now you're on your own.” ...Maybe we can become friends.” Curt described how he
had gotten close to and remained in touch and even socialized with many of his former
deprogrammees, including Greg Stern. Curt: “I'm not gonna just sit here and say I'm gonna
be your friend”... [deprogramming means sharing yourself] as you share information.”
I found this exchange fascinating. Curt may have been trying to enhance Ken's transference
as a “reward” for Ken's “good behavior.” Or the transference may have deepened as Ken's
doubts grew and developed, and as personal information was concurrently revealed. Curt
also seemed to be using the deepening relationship as his justification for wanting Ken to
stay as long as necessary, on a voluntary basis.
The conversation now returned to Lifton. After some discussion, Curt realized that Ken was
having some difficulty concentrating. He reminded Ken that he should get some more sleep.
Ken agreed. He thanked Curt, Curt left the room and by 1:57 p.m., Ken had fallen asleep.
He slept until 5:07 p.m. that afternoon. I left the room along with Curt, and went
downstairs to make some notes and relax a bit. Curt and Sandy left shortly thereafter to run
some errands.
After Ken's nap. Ken awoke from his nap sounding refreshed and even vibrant. Greg
entered the room, and he and Ken began talking about the former's first days as an ISKCON
initiate. Ken digressed briefly, talking about Chuck Norris's Martial Arts lifestyle. The
conversation was low-key and personal. As the two compared stories about temple life (Ken
even confirmed some rumors Greg had heard), Bobbi entered the room with some
vegetables in tomato sauce. Ken had begun to eat when I came in. Greg continued to share
anecdotes from his own experiences.
Curt then brought in a testimonial tape from a former Krishna, “John.” John had a British
accent, and as Curt set up the tape, Greg clowned around with an excellent imitation of
John Lennon. At this point I noted that Ken and the deprogrammers seemed to be
participating in the conversation about equally. Ken then talked about his impressions of the
founder of transcendental meditation, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Greg replied with some of the
recent allegations and controversies surrounding the Maharishi. The pattern of following a
digression with a redirection of Ken's attention back onto ISKCON had by now been firmly
established. After briefly discussing the Mahesh Yogi's transgressions, Greg refocused the
conversation by tying the Maharishi's contradictions to those of ISKCON's founder. He
related Hansadutta's stories of Prabhupada's fits of anger, even though Prabhupada always
preached against anger. Greg then described an encounter with Prabhupada in which
Prabhupada demonstrated that he knew nothing about the young devotee: “He didn't even
know my name.” Yet ISKCON philosophy states the pure devotee (Prabhupada) knows
everything. As Greg and Ken talked, Curt continued to work on setting up the tape.
Although Ken seemed to be thinking and considering, he still clung to his desire to remain a
devotee, stating that he would no longer attend a Krishna temple or socialize with the
