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instruct disciples, then what does this say about Prabhupada, the “Perfect Master? This line
of reasoning seemed to get Ken even more upset. “Was Prabhupada personally present
when this was stated?” Curt and Sandy responded with an “orienting” statement “Listen!
Listen closely!” [Sandy): “Listen to what he [Curt and/or Prabhupada] says!” When Ken
finally appeared to back down, Curt pushed further by making a process comment. “Did you
see what you just did? ...Because you [heard what I said] as a potentially threatening
statement that indicated some blind obedience...you didn't deal with the statement that was
being made. You tried to undermine the validity of the individual making it.”
The demand to think. Curt's utilization of a logical argumentative approach (characterized
primarily by questioning and giving information) to ISKCON doctrine continued: he next
noted that one version of the Gita claims there are 32 gurus, while another says 33. How
can both be true? It there is one flaw, then it is not perfection. As Ken seemed to consider
this reasoning anxiously, Curt began to reassure him that nothing bad will happen to him
for questioning ISKCON doctrine. “I don't think you will [get punished] because I know a
number of people who have left.”
Mother. At 11: 15, Ken requested time to talk to his mother. Curt went out again to get
Risa, and the two returned. Risa entered the room, and sat on the bed, about 1-1/2 feet to
Ken's left. As they talked, we all filed out of the room to afford them some privacy. Curt and
Greg commented that they were very pleased that Ken and Risa were talking this was a
highly positive sign. Curt took out my recorder when Risa entered the room and I felt it
would be awkward to request otherwise. Ken and Risa's conversation began at 11:28.
Although I was not privy to their conversation, I later found out that Ken was sharing some
doubts with his mother. He said he wasn‟t sure whether or not he would go to Puerto Rico
now (he was on his way there prior to the pickup, on Krishna business). He stated that he
might still go, but he wasn't sure. Later, Curt explained that when the “one week time
frame was given. the additional two to four weeks at Rehab were deliberately left out so as
“not to overwhelm the guy.” Thus, Ken was still considering going to Puerto Rico “next
week, when this is over.” This was another good sign according to Curt. “He's beginning to
accept that this will take some time.” Ken explained that he was angry at her at first (during
the pick-up), that he wanted to punch her, but that then he began to realize “this wasn't so
bad.” Risa listened mostly, although when he made the statements about being angry and
wanting to punch her, she hugged him. When she spoke, it was generally so quietly that I
could not catch any of what she was saying .She appeared to be explaining that she only
did this because she loved him. Ken told her than he stopped being angry, however, once
he began to realize that “this wasn't so bad.” After talking to his mother, Ken, Curt and
Greg returned to Ken's room (I remained just outside the room) and began to discuss the
origins of Indian culture with Brian, who had waited in the room while Ken and Risa were
standing outside it, talking. Brian began to point out that linguistic research has shown that
Latin and Sanskrit have their roots in a third common language, and that Sanskrit did not
give birth to Latin as is claimed by Prabhupada.
The First Day: Late Evening
Curt's analysis. At this point, Greg's wife, Bobbi Stern, entered the mom. She introduced
herself very briefly and after Ken said hello, she sat down. It was now about 12:15 am. Ken
was asked if he was tired and wanted to call it quits for the night. He said he was tired, but
that he wanted to continue. Greg began to ask Ken some more about his experiences, while
relating some more of his own. Curt stepped out. I was still seated by the steps just outside
the open door of Ken's room. Curt began to give me his impressions of what was going on
at this point. He stated that Ken didn't want to go to sleep because “he's all fired up” and
“he wants to express himself … he wants to talk to somebody. He's starting to understand
where we're coming from,” and may even be identifying a little with his adversaries. At this
point, Curt said, Ken wants a free forum to express doubts that have been suppressed, and

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 37
he “can't stop now.” And so the need to talk is stronger than the need for sleep. “This is the
first time in a long time that he has felt free to express himself. All the other times he's felt
too guilty.” Curt noted that Ken might be entering the stage when many cultists “snap.” The
snapping point is usually preceded by a strong drive to talk (“hyper-talk”). “Ifs a good sign,”
he said.
Ken debates, then relates. Inside Ken's room, Sandy and Ken discussed India. Ken began
defending India as a spiritual and progressive country, while Sandy, Brian, and Curt (who
had just re-entered the room) pointed out that conditions are as bad as ever there. After
about 10 minutes or so, Brian and Sandy shifted the conversation toward a discussion of
how cult recruiting and sales techniques are similar. Sandy suggested similarities between
Ken's experiences in ISKCON and his own experience in a Bible cult. Curt read an article in
which ISKCON criticized the Berkeley (California) temple (led by guru Hansadutta) for
various excesses, including possession of guns. Curt criticized ISKCON's belated
acknowledgment of the Berkeley temple's excesses. “This is scapegoating. Once the cops
busted this temple, all of a sudden all of ISKCON is quick to denounce this temple as an
aberration.” Ken defended ISKCON. Yes this is despicable, but ISKCON itself is to be
commended for its official disapproval of these excesses. Responding to Curt's confrontation
of his unquestioning acceptance of the “official” ISKCON line, Ken admitted that to question
the official line is equal to blasphemy. Curt thanked him for being honest about it, adding
that “you know, what you're stressing to us now ...is the very same thing everybody thinks
about. Everybody feels it, everybody.” Ken hesitantly admitted to occasional “blasphemy,”
as Greg and Curt attempted to reframe his self- condemnation. They noted how human it is
to have critical thoughts about bad practices, and they pointed out how this is true for all
cultists, in all cults. Ken agreed, but continued to ague that critical thinking is a sign of
imperfection, of the need to spiritually purify the Self. Curt then read a testimonial (entitled
“Letter of Appreciation and Apology to my Deprogrammers”) from Mary, another Krishna he
deprogrammed. Mary described how she was instructed by ISKCON to resist the
deprogramming. Resistance consisted of going along with the deprogrammers until you can
get free by: (a) defeating them with logic, (b) leaving the deprogramming site, (c) if steps
(a) and (b) fail, cut the deprogrammers' tongues, and/or (d) kill them and/or yourself. Ken
began to relate his feelings about his own current predicament. At first he was very upset,
and even now he felt afraid, but maybe this was for the best. He admitted that he was “so
wound up on Ham Krishna,” but that he had always had doubts. Curt reminded Ken not to
“bullshit” him, yet on the other hand he seemed to acknowledge Ken's disclosure by
reminding him that “to be human” is to doubt, and that doubting isn't the same as indulging
in all your senses (i.e., the two are not the same, as ISKCON says). The conversation
digressed from that point, as Curt first talked briefly about his history of drug abuse, and
then participated with Ken and the deprogrammers in an equally brief discussion about
some movies. This conversation was highlighted by Greg's Jack Nicholson imitation. Curt
put an end to the side conversations by remarking “Uh, we're trying to get it to look like a
deprogramming is going on in here.” The conversation refocused on criticizing ISKCON
doctrine, but with lots of humor interlaced. Curt asked Ken what he had mad in the papers
about Mary, whose involvement with and exit from ISKCON achieved considerable notoriety.
Ken replied that she did not sound very intelligent. Greg returned with a challenge to
ISKCON's denigration of women. “Just like any other woman eh?” Curt continued to read
Mary's account of her deprogramming as Ken questioned parts he had difficulty following.
He did not seem to be criticizing, but rather was just trying to follow the story. Bobbi asked
Ken how he first learned that Mary was “rescued.” Ken laughed at Bobbi's choice of terms.
“I never heard it called that before.”
An early “confession.” Ken began to discuss how he would go out to buy newspapers for
his guru and would read some of them himself, even though this was against ISKCON rules.
This was only one of Ken's supposed transgressions. Ken disclosed more, including a story