Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 57
immensely, and even commented on this. “I‟ll tell you, I'm having a better time now than I
ever did as a Krishna.” He then went on to relate how it always seemed that the devotees
most in demand for companionship (sankirtan, etc.) were the ones who were least
spiritually advanced. Sandy tried to answer the implied question. “That‟s because they were
the ones who were most human.” Curt and Ken discussed how Ken was able to maintain his
humor, rebelliousness, and his sensibility even while a devotee. In so doing, Curt paid Ken a
compliment: “That‟s probably why you are in as good shape as you are.” On his part,
however, Ken noted that it was difficult, that he always felt guilty.
Amidst a resurgence of laughter, there followed more discussion of the constant demand to
chant in order not to question, in order to avoid the “mental platform” in order to avoid
thinking. Ken then related another absurd ISKCON notion. He had read an explanation for
why there were so many bird droppings on Prabhupada's grave: The spiritual entities of the
birds were paying homage to their “spiritual master.” Ken laughed uproariously then, almost
sounding drunk. Were tears hidden in his laughter? Ken related between guffaws, “And the
devotees would try to [read the patterns of the droppings] as though they were reading tea
leaves, trying to get some esoteric meaning from them.” Curt replied, “that story is so
exemplary of [cult mentality) ...You think the guru is sooo spiritual: He can make profound
stuff out of bird shit” Ken laughed. “And I thought “wow”, I must be pretty stupid and not
spiritually advanced, because I couldn't figure out what was [so meaningful] ...I guess I
wasn't spiritually developed enough ...” Sandy and Greg followed Ken fairly closely, laughing
with him although not with the same emotional intensity. To me, it seemed as though Ken
had now totally opened up, and was being overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of what had
just happened (i.e., cutting his sika, etc.).
Questioning theology and authority. Most deprogrammers consider renunciation of the
cult leader to be the “real” test of whether or not a cultist has “snapped.” Ken clearly
seemed to have passed this test. When everyone had finished laughing, the talk because
subdued and serious as they discussed Prabhupada's first years in the U.S., and ISKCON's
disdain for marriage and family. They are part of maya. Deprogrammers and
deprogrammee then returned to debunking ISKCON theology. Ken and Sandy were now the
primary talkers. Much or most of the talking was by Ken. Sandy listened and commented,
and mostly seemed to mirror (empathize with) Ken. Brian reentered the conversation at this
point, by telling stories that debunked parapsychology. He reminded Ken: “Things that we
didn't understand 100 years ago we understand now ...most things have logical
explanations.” Ken talked about some of his experiences that he found difficult to explain. It
seemed like he wanted the deprogrammers to offer alternative/logical explanations. In
response, Sandy talked about some of the manipulations performed by his cult leader,
David Stone. He and Ken discussed the problems inherent when “God, the spokesman for
God, and the words the spokesman write ...are all seen as one and the same thing.” Brian
added stories about the manipulation tactics practiced by some evangelists. The
conversation continued to involve considerable self-disclosing. Ken recalled the conflict he
felt when he heard that Prabhupada had said anyone claiming to be God is a “dog, a rascal
and a deceiver.” This pronouncement contradicted a later statement that devotees should
accept Prabhupada as “good as God.” In confirmation, Curt read an interview with
Prabhupada in the Back to Godhead. The interviewer notes that Prabhupada has said he is
not a god, yet devotees seem to treat him like a god. Prabhupada answered, “yes, that is
their duty ...[the spiritual master] should be respected as much as God.” The interviewer
then questioned Prabhupada's personal wealth. Prabhupada replied that his wealth “teaches
the disciples how to treat the spiritual masters as good as God.” Ken seemed fascinated by
these passages, which appeared in official ISKCON publications, and were therefore
incontestably valid as official doctrine. Curt then explained that he had waited to show these
passages to Ken because they are normally saved for the time when a Krishna vehemently
denies that Prabhupada ever claimed to be like God. Fortunately, Ken was never that
immensely, and even commented on this. “I‟ll tell you, I'm having a better time now than I
ever did as a Krishna.” He then went on to relate how it always seemed that the devotees
most in demand for companionship (sankirtan, etc.) were the ones who were least
spiritually advanced. Sandy tried to answer the implied question. “That‟s because they were
the ones who were most human.” Curt and Ken discussed how Ken was able to maintain his
humor, rebelliousness, and his sensibility even while a devotee. In so doing, Curt paid Ken a
compliment: “That‟s probably why you are in as good shape as you are.” On his part,
however, Ken noted that it was difficult, that he always felt guilty.
Amidst a resurgence of laughter, there followed more discussion of the constant demand to
chant in order not to question, in order to avoid the “mental platform” in order to avoid
thinking. Ken then related another absurd ISKCON notion. He had read an explanation for
why there were so many bird droppings on Prabhupada's grave: The spiritual entities of the
birds were paying homage to their “spiritual master.” Ken laughed uproariously then, almost
sounding drunk. Were tears hidden in his laughter? Ken related between guffaws, “And the
devotees would try to [read the patterns of the droppings] as though they were reading tea
leaves, trying to get some esoteric meaning from them.” Curt replied, “that story is so
exemplary of [cult mentality) ...You think the guru is sooo spiritual: He can make profound
stuff out of bird shit” Ken laughed. “And I thought “wow”, I must be pretty stupid and not
spiritually advanced, because I couldn't figure out what was [so meaningful] ...I guess I
wasn't spiritually developed enough ...” Sandy and Greg followed Ken fairly closely, laughing
with him although not with the same emotional intensity. To me, it seemed as though Ken
had now totally opened up, and was being overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of what had
just happened (i.e., cutting his sika, etc.).
Questioning theology and authority. Most deprogrammers consider renunciation of the
cult leader to be the “real” test of whether or not a cultist has “snapped.” Ken clearly
seemed to have passed this test. When everyone had finished laughing, the talk because
subdued and serious as they discussed Prabhupada's first years in the U.S., and ISKCON's
disdain for marriage and family. They are part of maya. Deprogrammers and
deprogrammee then returned to debunking ISKCON theology. Ken and Sandy were now the
primary talkers. Much or most of the talking was by Ken. Sandy listened and commented,
and mostly seemed to mirror (empathize with) Ken. Brian reentered the conversation at this
point, by telling stories that debunked parapsychology. He reminded Ken: “Things that we
didn't understand 100 years ago we understand now ...most things have logical
explanations.” Ken talked about some of his experiences that he found difficult to explain. It
seemed like he wanted the deprogrammers to offer alternative/logical explanations. In
response, Sandy talked about some of the manipulations performed by his cult leader,
David Stone. He and Ken discussed the problems inherent when “God, the spokesman for
God, and the words the spokesman write ...are all seen as one and the same thing.” Brian
added stories about the manipulation tactics practiced by some evangelists. The
conversation continued to involve considerable self-disclosing. Ken recalled the conflict he
felt when he heard that Prabhupada had said anyone claiming to be God is a “dog, a rascal
and a deceiver.” This pronouncement contradicted a later statement that devotees should
accept Prabhupada as “good as God.” In confirmation, Curt read an interview with
Prabhupada in the Back to Godhead. The interviewer notes that Prabhupada has said he is
not a god, yet devotees seem to treat him like a god. Prabhupada answered, “yes, that is
their duty ...[the spiritual master] should be respected as much as God.” The interviewer
then questioned Prabhupada's personal wealth. Prabhupada replied that his wealth “teaches
the disciples how to treat the spiritual masters as good as God.” Ken seemed fascinated by
these passages, which appeared in official ISKCON publications, and were therefore
incontestably valid as official doctrine. Curt then explained that he had waited to show these
passages to Ken because they are normally saved for the time when a Krishna vehemently
denies that Prabhupada ever claimed to be like God. Fortunately, Ken was never that
