Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 34
Prior to that point, the talk had been gentle, focused primarily on listening to Ken's
travelog: what temples he had visited, whom he had met, etc.
I was relieved then to see Curt take my tape recorder out and quickly ask Ken if the
conversation could be taped. I was not able to hear Ken's response (he often spoke with
barely audible volume), but apparently it was affirmative, as Curt then placed the recorder
near where he was seated, in plain view of Ken. Despite Ken's apparent permission to
record the conversation, I later noticed Curt trying to be inconspicuous about the tape
recorder by holding it semi-concealed in his hands, behind his back.
Returning again to some of ISKCON's illegal activities, Curt overtly asked Ken to relate this
information to his own experience. Ken responded by accusing Curt and Greg of working as
deprogrammers for money. Greg nondefensively responded to the Krishna doctrine
underlying this criticism: ISKCON makes it seem like everyone is a materialist, out “to be a
master and not a slave,” yet Ken would realize that his deprogrammers wanted to serve
him. ISKCON criticizes nonmembers for being “mudhas who work like an ass” (thinking only
of how to work for money), yet Krishna devotees are more money-conscious than any other
people he ever met. Ken, so accustomed to the potential recruits defensive posturing about
materialism (a defensiveness that leads naturally into the well-rehearsed Krishna “rap”).
seemed caught off-guard by Greg, and he tentatively agreed. “I kind of noticed that
myself.” As Greg and Ken continued to discuss this points, Greg's conversational style
slowly shifted away from self-disclosure toward increased questioning of Ken. It seemed as
though Greg had taken a mutual, equal conversation and gently turned it into one in which
he more clearly led and paced it. As Greg gave information, Ken responded with doctrine.
Greg retorted with additional questions, and a few admonitions to consider other points of
view. Often, Greg couched these confrontations in a tone of voice that conveyed a safe,
respectful humor. Ken responded to the humor in Greg's confrontation with renewed self-
disclosure.
It was now 9:20 p.m., and Ken still hadn't eaten anything since prior to the 11 snatch.” The
deprogrammers asked him again if he was hungry. Ken asked if there were any nuts or
fruits available, and Curt went downstairs to ask Risa to prepare some. The discussion had
become low-key again. Greg Stern was talking a lot, in low tones and at a slow tempo. He
was pointing out how contradictory many of the Krishna admonitions were -how, for
example, the constant warning not to think about sex made it almost impossible to think of
anything but sex. Ken laughed at this, and commented that some of the Krishna women “in
those tight saris” looked pretty good. He then remarked almost too nonchalantly that “I've
been in the temple so long, I want to get a piece.” There was a strained, driven quality to
his voice as he made those statements, it was as though he were making statements to be
smart or rebellious (while really, deep down, he still felt sex was “dirty”). Or perhaps Ken
hoped to trick the deprogrammers into showing their “true, corrupt” intentions. While I
continued to listen outside the room, Brian (who was also listening) explained that Ken's
statements sounded false: “He's trying to con his way out.”
At this point, Curt returned upstairs but decided to have a cigarette before re- entering
Ken's room (he never smoked in front of Ken, “to show respect” fox Ken's beliefs). The
cigarette break afforded me the chance to ask him how he thought it was going. He
shrugged. “He's definitely talking, that‟s a certain sign of some progress. And he knows the
organization has some problems, but ifs too early to tell. He could be faking. You know,
we'll just continue and see.” Curt intuited that I had been standing just outside the door for
some time. “Wait till I come back, and then you can go in.”
My entrance. Curt went back downstairs, and returned a few minutes later with a cup of
tea or coffee. Greg and Ken were still talking. Curt told me to wait a bit more, then he re-
entered the room and asked Ken to disclose any experiences he might have had related to
Prior to that point, the talk had been gentle, focused primarily on listening to Ken's
travelog: what temples he had visited, whom he had met, etc.
I was relieved then to see Curt take my tape recorder out and quickly ask Ken if the
conversation could be taped. I was not able to hear Ken's response (he often spoke with
barely audible volume), but apparently it was affirmative, as Curt then placed the recorder
near where he was seated, in plain view of Ken. Despite Ken's apparent permission to
record the conversation, I later noticed Curt trying to be inconspicuous about the tape
recorder by holding it semi-concealed in his hands, behind his back.
Returning again to some of ISKCON's illegal activities, Curt overtly asked Ken to relate this
information to his own experience. Ken responded by accusing Curt and Greg of working as
deprogrammers for money. Greg nondefensively responded to the Krishna doctrine
underlying this criticism: ISKCON makes it seem like everyone is a materialist, out “to be a
master and not a slave,” yet Ken would realize that his deprogrammers wanted to serve
him. ISKCON criticizes nonmembers for being “mudhas who work like an ass” (thinking only
of how to work for money), yet Krishna devotees are more money-conscious than any other
people he ever met. Ken, so accustomed to the potential recruits defensive posturing about
materialism (a defensiveness that leads naturally into the well-rehearsed Krishna “rap”).
seemed caught off-guard by Greg, and he tentatively agreed. “I kind of noticed that
myself.” As Greg and Ken continued to discuss this points, Greg's conversational style
slowly shifted away from self-disclosure toward increased questioning of Ken. It seemed as
though Greg had taken a mutual, equal conversation and gently turned it into one in which
he more clearly led and paced it. As Greg gave information, Ken responded with doctrine.
Greg retorted with additional questions, and a few admonitions to consider other points of
view. Often, Greg couched these confrontations in a tone of voice that conveyed a safe,
respectful humor. Ken responded to the humor in Greg's confrontation with renewed self-
disclosure.
It was now 9:20 p.m., and Ken still hadn't eaten anything since prior to the 11 snatch.” The
deprogrammers asked him again if he was hungry. Ken asked if there were any nuts or
fruits available, and Curt went downstairs to ask Risa to prepare some. The discussion had
become low-key again. Greg Stern was talking a lot, in low tones and at a slow tempo. He
was pointing out how contradictory many of the Krishna admonitions were -how, for
example, the constant warning not to think about sex made it almost impossible to think of
anything but sex. Ken laughed at this, and commented that some of the Krishna women “in
those tight saris” looked pretty good. He then remarked almost too nonchalantly that “I've
been in the temple so long, I want to get a piece.” There was a strained, driven quality to
his voice as he made those statements, it was as though he were making statements to be
smart or rebellious (while really, deep down, he still felt sex was “dirty”). Or perhaps Ken
hoped to trick the deprogrammers into showing their “true, corrupt” intentions. While I
continued to listen outside the room, Brian (who was also listening) explained that Ken's
statements sounded false: “He's trying to con his way out.”
At this point, Curt returned upstairs but decided to have a cigarette before re- entering
Ken's room (he never smoked in front of Ken, “to show respect” fox Ken's beliefs). The
cigarette break afforded me the chance to ask him how he thought it was going. He
shrugged. “He's definitely talking, that‟s a certain sign of some progress. And he knows the
organization has some problems, but ifs too early to tell. He could be faking. You know,
we'll just continue and see.” Curt intuited that I had been standing just outside the door for
some time. “Wait till I come back, and then you can go in.”
My entrance. Curt went back downstairs, and returned a few minutes later with a cup of
tea or coffee. Greg and Ken were still talking. Curt told me to wait a bit more, then he re-
entered the room and asked Ken to disclose any experiences he might have had related to
