Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 34
Prior to that point, the talk had been gentle, focused primarily on listening to Ken's
travelog: what temples he had visited, whom he had met, etc.
I was relieved then to see Curt take my tape recorder out and quickly ask Ken if the
conversation could be taped. I was not able to hear Ken's response (he often spoke with
barely audible volume), but apparently it was affirmative, as Curt then placed the recorder
near where he was seated, in plain view of Ken. Despite Ken's apparent permission to
record the conversation, I later noticed Curt trying to be inconspicuous about the tape
recorder by holding it semi-concealed in his hands, behind his back.
Returning again to some of ISKCON's illegal activities, Curt overtly asked Ken to relate this
information to his own experience. Ken responded by accusing Curt and Greg of working as
deprogrammers for money. Greg nondefensively responded to the Krishna doctrine
underlying this criticism: ISKCON makes it seem like everyone is a materialist, out “to be a
master and not a slave,” yet Ken would realize that his deprogrammers wanted to serve
him. ISKCON criticizes nonmembers for being “mudhas who work like an ass” (thinking only
of how to work for money), yet Krishna devotees are more money-conscious than any other
people he ever met. Ken, so accustomed to the potential recruits defensive posturing about
materialism (a defensiveness that leads naturally into the well-rehearsed Krishna “rap”).
seemed caught off-guard by Greg, and he tentatively agreed. “I kind of noticed that
myself.” As Greg and Ken continued to discuss this points, Greg's conversational style
slowly shifted away from self-disclosure toward increased questioning of Ken. It seemed as
though Greg had taken a mutual, equal conversation and gently turned it into one in which
he more clearly led and paced it. As Greg gave information, Ken responded with doctrine.
Greg retorted with additional questions, and a few admonitions to consider other points of
view. Often, Greg couched these confrontations in a tone of voice that conveyed a safe,
respectful humor. Ken responded to the humor in Greg's confrontation with renewed self-
disclosure.
It was now 9:20 p.m., and Ken still hadn't eaten anything since prior to the 11 snatch.” The
deprogrammers asked him again if he was hungry. Ken asked if there were any nuts or
fruits available, and Curt went downstairs to ask Risa to prepare some. The discussion had
become low-key again. Greg Stern was talking a lot, in low tones and at a slow tempo. He
was pointing out how contradictory many of the Krishna admonitions were -how, for
example, the constant warning not to think about sex made it almost impossible to think of
anything but sex. Ken laughed at this, and commented that some of the Krishna women “in
those tight saris” looked pretty good. He then remarked almost too nonchalantly that “I've
been in the temple so long, I want to get a piece.” There was a strained, driven quality to
his voice as he made those statements, it was as though he were making statements to be
smart or rebellious (while really, deep down, he still felt sex was “dirty”). Or perhaps Ken
hoped to trick the deprogrammers into showing their “true, corrupt” intentions. While I
continued to listen outside the room, Brian (who was also listening) explained that Ken's
statements sounded false: “He's trying to con his way out.”
At this point, Curt returned upstairs but decided to have a cigarette before re- entering
Ken's room (he never smoked in front of Ken, “to show respect” fox Ken's beliefs). The
cigarette break afforded me the chance to ask him how he thought it was going. He
shrugged. “He's definitely talking, that‟s a certain sign of some progress. And he knows the
organization has some problems, but ifs too early to tell. He could be faking. You know,
we'll just continue and see.” Curt intuited that I had been standing just outside the door for
some time. “Wait till I come back, and then you can go in.”
My entrance. Curt went back downstairs, and returned a few minutes later with a cup of
tea or coffee. Greg and Ken were still talking. Curt told me to wait a bit more, then he re-
entered the room and asked Ken to disclose any experiences he might have had related to

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 35
ISKCON's illegal activities. Curt‟s timing seemed to be right. Ken asked Curt to turn the tape
recorder off and according to Curt‟s later report, began telling the deprogrammers about
some illegal activities he witnessed and did not want recorded on tape. The tape recorder
was turned off. Curt then came out again, and told me I could go in. The recorder was
turned back on. I nervously said hello and Curt introduced me by name, but he said nothing
about what I was doing there. Ken asked me where I was from and if I had been a Krishna.
I said “no” to having been a Krishna, and stated that I had undergone Moonist training, and
that I was there to observe what was happening. He looked puzzled, but then told me that
he had met a number of Moonists and was very impressed with them Curt hesitated to tell
Ken why I was present, and instead made a joke about my presence and about my Moonist
training. I gave Ken a brief statement of my purpose, and I told him that I was a student in
psychology.
Curt interrupted us, looking somewhat perturbed and perhaps annoyed. I was not aware of
my own excitement and anxiety at the time, but the fact that I talked more than I wanted
suggested that I was very nervous. Soon, however I calmed down and felt a need to back
off and stop talking. Curt then steered the direction of the conversation back to the
Krishnas. I thought about how Curt can convey a sense of client-centeredness while
maintaining a fairly close grip on the direction and focus of the proceedings. I was later told
that veering away from the topic could be counterproductive, and might help the cultist to
avoid dealing with the important matter at hand.
At 9:34, Greg Stern began to tell a story about one of the gurus he and Kei knew, who
drank quite a bit of alcohol. He drank to the point where it became “public” knowledge
among other devotees and the guru had to come up with an explanation for his behavior.
“He said it was „stomach medicine‟,” Greg noted, with amazed and nervous chuckles from
Ken. I was impressed with how much talking was going on. It was almost as though Ken
enjoyed the attention, the time to just sit and shoot the breeze. He had no trouble
commenting on what was being said, and he seemed fairly connected. Yet there was a
stiffness throughout these early discussions. Ken barely moved, and his voice carried little
variation in affect At this point (10:31) Curt began to pick up where he had left off. He
talked at length now, with only occasional comments from Ken. Ken often seemed to be
staring off into the distance, silent and unresponsive. I wondered if he was chanting. At
10:40, Ken broke his silence. He began to state that everything was okay, that he figured
the deprogramming was Krishna's will. Curt exited the room again (to give a report to Ken's
mother, I later discovered).
Early contradictions. The conversation continued, with Ken beginning to back away from
his previous (unrecorded) self-disclosure by disputing Greg's experiences with his own
different experiences. The deprogrammer listened, and questioned Ken when he
contradicted himself, or challenged him when he cited doctrine. Curt began pointing out
differences between Ken's stated beliefs and actual ISKCON beliefs. Ken stated that (in his
opinion) it can still be spiritual even if he does not totally follow ISKCON rules. Our disputed
notion by quoting from “Back to Godhead” and an ISKCON speech (“Ten Offenses”): not
totally following the guru means death. “If one has faith in the guru, if it is nighttime but
the guru says it is day, you will see the sun shining.” This seemed to bother Ken. “Where,
where is that book?” he anxiously asked. In the course of the deprogramming, I found Curl
using this tactic quite a lot- The message is subtle but clear. He knows more about ISKCON
than the cultist does, and he is the expert -make the cultist aware of the real ISKCON.
Curt‟s quote seemed to agitate Km causing him to try hard to dispute this information. First,
Ken challenged that the guru quoted in “Ten Offenses” later turned out to be a “bogus”
guru. Curt countered by pointing out that it was the “Perfect Master,” A.C. Bhaktivedanta,
Swami Prabhupada (the now deceased founder of ISKCON), who directly instructed the
guru to make this statement to disciples. Moreover, if Prabhupada picked a “bogus” guru to