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Krishnas, but that he still believed in the validity of the philosophy and would practice Hare
Krishna theology independently, on his own.
At this point, Curt called everyone's attention to the fact that the tape was finally ready, and
he began to play it. The tape proved to be a recitation of a long list of ISKCON philosophical
fallacies. First John assailed ISKCON's negative view of democracy (which, according to the
Krishnas, is “mob rule”). John then talked about ISKCON's astronomy, which has numerous
fallacies. The sun, for example, is said to be only 18,000 miles away while the moon is over
1 million miles away eclipses, then, are caused by spirit planets blocking out the sun.
ISKCON also claims that it is impossible to get past the atmosphere and therefore the space
program is a sham. I found it difficult to comprehend the amount of distortion that would be
necessary to accept these beliefs as fact, and I wondered aloud about how ISKCON
explained satellite TV and weather reports, phone links, the space shuttle, etc. Due to his
isolation in ISKCON, Ken knew nothing about the shuttle. We then returned to the tape as
John described how ISKCON preached that a nuclear war was inevitable, and that following
this war, ISKCON would take over and kill anyone not chanting Hare Krishna.
As Curt played the tape, he often stopped it to underscore or comment on John's remarks.
Ken was amazed, because he had heard the same stories (e.g., about Krishnas surviving
nuclear explosions, or killing non-Krishnas), and this shared experience seemed to greatly
underscore the validity of John's criticisms. Discussion then moved to Prabhupada's
comments on Hitler (that Hitler was bad only because he failed). At this point Sandy and
Brian came back upstairs and rejoined the conversation. After listening briefly, they
compared the growth of ISKCON to the historical course of Nazism and Communism. Curt
then returned to John's testimony. John was now delineating guru Jayatirtha's inappropriate
behavior: his experimentation with LSD, and his sexual exploits.
Self-disclosures and laughter. John's criticisms of Jayatirtha made Ken grimace. The
direct criticism of a guru chipped away at Ken's own suppressed conflicts with his guru or
spiritual master. It secretly angered Ken when his guru would reply to statements implying
criticism or discontent with “I'm a disciple of Prabhupada. I am your spiritual superior. You
should not speak to me like this.” Ken talked about how he hated his guru's argument for
not dealing with “negativity.” He noted with distaste how Krishna doctrine states that when
a devotee has a conflict with his spiritual superior, the devotee is supposed to take the
blame, feel guilty, and ask for forgiveness. Ken recalled how “going to the beach myself was
so pleasurable for him, and how ISKCON constantly criticized him for actually enjoying an
activity about which he was supposed to feel guilty. With these statements, Ken seemed to
reach a new depth in his reevaluation of his experiences in ISKCON. These comments
constituted considerable self- disclosure for a devotee. Greg seemed to be listening
intensely, while Curt occasionally interjected comments on how Ken's statements were
illustrative of totalism. Ken seemed to be relating a lot of suppressed feelings and conflicts
at this point, and in retrospect this conversation seemed to predict the “snap” that would
follow shortly.
Greg responded to Ken's self-disclosures with more about his own similar experiences. He
noted that he was considered an especially good devotee, with a reputation for working
hard, yet he would return to the temple each day feeling anguished. Then he would spot a
devotee who did little or no work “for Krishna” that day, yet seemed happier. Greg would
wonder just who had attained spiritual bliss. Again using walks along the beach as an
example, Ken commented on how he generally felt most at peace “on the days I was most
in maya,” when he was violating ISKCON miles. Greg seemed to take this admission as a
sign that it was time to ask a most difficult question: Did Ken keep his celibacy vows?
Hesitantly, Ken admitted that after 6 months, he masturbated. The difficulty Ken had with
this admission was evident in his strained voice and his downward stare. Interestingly, the
deprogrammers took Ken's admission lightly, perhaps worried that allowing Ken to stay with

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 53
intense affect might cause a resurgence of his Krishna defense mechanism. They reassured
him, explaining wet dreams to him in a factual yet jolting way. “It [sperm] comes out of
your ears, eventually!” Spontaneous jokes related to masturbation and wet dreams
continued briefly, which did in fact seem to lift a considerable amount of tension. Ken noted
that when he did masturbate after 6 months, his ejaculate looked strange (“It [looked]
coagulated.”), just as ISKCON said it would. Sandy replied that it probably looked strange
because Ken felt so guilty. Ken agreed: “And also because it had been so long since I
released it.” Curt concurred: “Oh hell yeah, man, you're gonna blow out the side of a
building!” Lots of laughter followed, and still laughing a little, Ken answered Curt. “When I
finally did fall down [i.e., masturbated] after all that time, after all that build-up, it felt
pretty good!” Greg validated Ken's feeling: “you bet!” The need to use humor to circumvent
Ken's defenses was never so obvious as when, following the laughter, Ken suddenly became
embarrassed, commenting anxiously that “this is all down on tape.” The deprogrammers
seemed about to remind him they can shut off the tape when Ken noted, “It‟s all right, it‟s
all human.”
Second day: Evening
Challenge. The talk now became serious again, as Sandy reminded Ken that wet dreams
are “a natural bodily function.” Ken: “Yeah, it‟s instinct” Curt picked up the subtle,
underlying doctrinaire thinking: “No, not instinct, because [in ISKCONI that has a negative
connotation. It‟s a natural bodily function, which means to go against that is to go against
nature.” Brian challenged the ISKCON view that sex is only for procreation. Why are
humans not subject to “heat” cycles during ovulation, and why do sterile people still have a
sex drive? Curt, however, made a process comment- Did Ken realize that even when
expressing his doubts and conflicts, he tended to express himself using Krishna terminology
and concepts? Ken replied defensively, that he was doing this to question it [the
philosophy]. Curt did not accept this explanation on face value, however. He then pushed
the limits of Ken's tolerance for anti-ISKCON statements by making his strongest statement
of distaste yet “If that‟s spirituality, then God help me, I hope I never attain it.” He further
challenged Ken. “How has ISKCON benefited mankind?” Curt confronted Ken on the value of
ISKCON's book distributions, and then attacked the food distribution program (i.e., free
feasts at temples) “which are for public relations purposes” only. Displaying an ISKCON
graph depicting how fund-raising money is used, Curt attacked each line item one by one:
vocational training (“There is none”), drug rehabilitation (“There are no drug rehab
centers”), 65% of the money to book distribution, etc. “Where is the money that was used
to build the Palace of Gold ...there is nothing here [that indicates] how much is invested in
real estate, or businesses [restaurants] ...” Curt then read a number of articles and internal
memoranda [confidential material distributed only to temple presidents] that indicated the
food distribution and other programs are used for “PR programs.” Ken was attentive, and he
did not let the issues implied by Curt's possession of secret memoranda slip by him: how
was this confidential material obtained? (It was taken by former devotees.) Curt returned to
the memoranda, which described how ISKCON distributed free food to the needy in Bengal.
Following this widely publicized initial demonstration of charity (which did not cost ISKCON a
cent as all the food had been donated to ISKCON to begin with), the Krishnas received
thousands of dollars in donations to continue the food distribution, but this money was kept
instead. Curt: “So ISKCON made money on the deal!” Ken seemed to agree with Curt‟s
criticism, and he reported similar incidents in which ISKCON used good public relations to
cover up deceptions.
At this point, the deprogrammers returned to John's tape and to the story of Jayatirtha. The
tape was constantly interrupted. Ken was at this point relating a lot of his experiences, and
the deprogramming seemed to be going fast. The bulk of John's tape was devoted to how
long the gurus knew about Jayatirtha's corruption, yet refused to remove him because of his