Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 56
personal history. At one point Ken asked Curt what he considered himself to be,
professionally. Curt responded. a “Reality-inducing therapist” or “re-evaluation counselor.”
He had some objections to the term “exit counselor,” however, because “exit counselor
implies that the [cultist) will exit.”
Curt‟s statement troubled me he was not being entirely honest. It was Greg, however, who
spoke what I thought He challenged Curt. Of course, they did want the cultist to exit These
comments led Curt, Greg, and Ken to discuss some of the processes involved in
deprogramming. Ken seemed to be racing a bit. He commented on almost anything that
was said. As he talked, Greg and Sandy pointed out some of the subtle Krishna-influenced
terminology and verbal patterns he was using (e.g., using the phrase “like that”, which is
used by a lot of Krishnas). The talk then turned to guilt, (when it is valid, when it is not)
and how it is often used by cults as part of “mystical manipulation.” Sandy, who often
seemed able to reduce complex concepts into easily-understood “down home” examples,
defined good guilt as “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for sleeping with someone other
than your wife.” Bad guilt, on the other hand, is “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for
sleeping with your wife” (i.e., for having sex).
The conversation at this point seemed to have a real flow, a give-and-take, to it. Ken
appeared to carry at least half of this conversation. Greg asked Ken how he felt. Ken
replied, “I feel the same way I've been feeling for some time now. I just haven't been able
to come out [and admit it to myself ...It feels like liberation.” Greg: “That‟s how I felt, too
...[and ironically that feeling of liberation was what I was hankering for in ISKCON.” Ken
then talked about how he had been waiting “for the Karmic reactions to happen,” for
something bad, “for a leg to be broken,” during the deprogramming, “but nothing [bad] has
happened to me ...I feel relieved, [especially] compared to the suppression I felt in the
ashram” The deprogrammers used the feeling of anxiety as one example of how ISKCON
manipulates feelings, and in the process, Ken underwent some reinterpretation of his past
feelings (e.g., when he felt anxious in ISKCON, it wasn't due to “falling spiritually,” it was
due to suppressing feelings). They discussed Ken's feelings about other people while in
ISKCON: “I wrote them all off ...[everyone] was just a karmi, a meat-eater.” Again, the
intensity of these discussions was muted at times by liberal doses of humor.
Second Day: Late Evening
More laughter. As Ken got more involved with admitting the things he did not like as a
Krishna (in a detailed fashion), Greg began to encourage him to talk about some of his
plans for the immediate future. Ken continued to claim he wanted to go to Puerto Rico.
Veering off the topic, he then talked about an incident that led to his being jaded for illegal
fund-raising. I recalled how Ken had just yesterday insisted that he never did anything
illegal in ISKCON! Ken and Greg then talked briefly about meditation again, and about a
devotee who had been convicted of being a confidence man. This devotee is now famous for
being an excellent ISKCON fundraiser. They talked about some of the stranger ISKCON
practices, including chewing the tissue that a guru blows his nose in, and drinking the water
a guru uses to rinse his mouth. Again, there was much laughter, and Greg contributed to
the humor by telling a story about Prabhupada demanding a special toilet seat. By this
point, Curt, who had intended to play a tape from the cult, “Students of Light,” had to give
up on this idea due to all the cutting up that was going on.
With the conversation remaining on a fairly humorous level, Ken talked about doing
sankirtan in the New York City subways, and the ways in which devotees tried to get around
the doctrine. He described how some devotees would hunt for thrown out food to be
brought back to the temple. One devotee (the one who had sold the book to Ken's mother)
went so far as to eat food off the floor of a subway train. Curt “And they call [non-Krishnas]
animals!” Curt‟s gibe met with much laughter. Ken seemed to be enjoying himself
personal history. At one point Ken asked Curt what he considered himself to be,
professionally. Curt responded. a “Reality-inducing therapist” or “re-evaluation counselor.”
He had some objections to the term “exit counselor,” however, because “exit counselor
implies that the [cultist) will exit.”
Curt‟s statement troubled me he was not being entirely honest. It was Greg, however, who
spoke what I thought He challenged Curt. Of course, they did want the cultist to exit These
comments led Curt, Greg, and Ken to discuss some of the processes involved in
deprogramming. Ken seemed to be racing a bit. He commented on almost anything that
was said. As he talked, Greg and Sandy pointed out some of the subtle Krishna-influenced
terminology and verbal patterns he was using (e.g., using the phrase “like that”, which is
used by a lot of Krishnas). The talk then turned to guilt, (when it is valid, when it is not)
and how it is often used by cults as part of “mystical manipulation.” Sandy, who often
seemed able to reduce complex concepts into easily-understood “down home” examples,
defined good guilt as “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for sleeping with someone other
than your wife.” Bad guilt, on the other hand, is “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for
sleeping with your wife” (i.e., for having sex).
The conversation at this point seemed to have a real flow, a give-and-take, to it. Ken
appeared to carry at least half of this conversation. Greg asked Ken how he felt. Ken
replied, “I feel the same way I've been feeling for some time now. I just haven't been able
to come out [and admit it to myself ...It feels like liberation.” Greg: “That‟s how I felt, too
...[and ironically that feeling of liberation was what I was hankering for in ISKCON.” Ken
then talked about how he had been waiting “for the Karmic reactions to happen,” for
something bad, “for a leg to be broken,” during the deprogramming, “but nothing [bad] has
happened to me ...I feel relieved, [especially] compared to the suppression I felt in the
ashram” The deprogrammers used the feeling of anxiety as one example of how ISKCON
manipulates feelings, and in the process, Ken underwent some reinterpretation of his past
feelings (e.g., when he felt anxious in ISKCON, it wasn't due to “falling spiritually,” it was
due to suppressing feelings). They discussed Ken's feelings about other people while in
ISKCON: “I wrote them all off ...[everyone] was just a karmi, a meat-eater.” Again, the
intensity of these discussions was muted at times by liberal doses of humor.
Second Day: Late Evening
More laughter. As Ken got more involved with admitting the things he did not like as a
Krishna (in a detailed fashion), Greg began to encourage him to talk about some of his
plans for the immediate future. Ken continued to claim he wanted to go to Puerto Rico.
Veering off the topic, he then talked about an incident that led to his being jaded for illegal
fund-raising. I recalled how Ken had just yesterday insisted that he never did anything
illegal in ISKCON! Ken and Greg then talked briefly about meditation again, and about a
devotee who had been convicted of being a confidence man. This devotee is now famous for
being an excellent ISKCON fundraiser. They talked about some of the stranger ISKCON
practices, including chewing the tissue that a guru blows his nose in, and drinking the water
a guru uses to rinse his mouth. Again, there was much laughter, and Greg contributed to
the humor by telling a story about Prabhupada demanding a special toilet seat. By this
point, Curt, who had intended to play a tape from the cult, “Students of Light,” had to give
up on this idea due to all the cutting up that was going on.
With the conversation remaining on a fairly humorous level, Ken talked about doing
sankirtan in the New York City subways, and the ways in which devotees tried to get around
the doctrine. He described how some devotees would hunt for thrown out food to be
brought back to the temple. One devotee (the one who had sold the book to Ken's mother)
went so far as to eat food off the floor of a subway train. Curt “And they call [non-Krishnas]
animals!” Curt‟s gibe met with much laughter. Ken seemed to be enjoying himself
