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personal history. At one point Ken asked Curt what he considered himself to be,
professionally. Curt responded. a “Reality-inducing therapist” or “re-evaluation counselor.”
He had some objections to the term “exit counselor,” however, because “exit counselor
implies that the [cultist) will exit.”
Curt‟s statement troubled me he was not being entirely honest. It was Greg, however, who
spoke what I thought He challenged Curt. Of course, they did want the cultist to exit These
comments led Curt, Greg, and Ken to discuss some of the processes involved in
deprogramming. Ken seemed to be racing a bit. He commented on almost anything that
was said. As he talked, Greg and Sandy pointed out some of the subtle Krishna-influenced
terminology and verbal patterns he was using (e.g., using the phrase “like that”, which is
used by a lot of Krishnas). The talk then turned to guilt, (when it is valid, when it is not)
and how it is often used by cults as part of “mystical manipulation.” Sandy, who often
seemed able to reduce complex concepts into easily-understood “down home” examples,
defined good guilt as “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for sleeping with someone other
than your wife.” Bad guilt, on the other hand, is “[what you feel] when you feel guilty for
sleeping with your wife” (i.e., for having sex).
The conversation at this point seemed to have a real flow, a give-and-take, to it. Ken
appeared to carry at least half of this conversation. Greg asked Ken how he felt. Ken
replied, “I feel the same way I've been feeling for some time now. I just haven't been able
to come out [and admit it to myself ...It feels like liberation.” Greg: “That‟s how I felt, too
...[and ironically that feeling of liberation was what I was hankering for in ISKCON.” Ken
then talked about how he had been waiting “for the Karmic reactions to happen,” for
something bad, “for a leg to be broken,” during the deprogramming, “but nothing [bad] has
happened to me ...I feel relieved, [especially] compared to the suppression I felt in the
ashram” The deprogrammers used the feeling of anxiety as one example of how ISKCON
manipulates feelings, and in the process, Ken underwent some reinterpretation of his past
feelings (e.g., when he felt anxious in ISKCON, it wasn't due to “falling spiritually,” it was
due to suppressing feelings). They discussed Ken's feelings about other people while in
ISKCON: “I wrote them all off ...[everyone] was just a karmi, a meat-eater.” Again, the
intensity of these discussions was muted at times by liberal doses of humor.
Second Day: Late Evening
More laughter. As Ken got more involved with admitting the things he did not like as a
Krishna (in a detailed fashion), Greg began to encourage him to talk about some of his
plans for the immediate future. Ken continued to claim he wanted to go to Puerto Rico.
Veering off the topic, he then talked about an incident that led to his being jaded for illegal
fund-raising. I recalled how Ken had just yesterday insisted that he never did anything
illegal in ISKCON! Ken and Greg then talked briefly about meditation again, and about a
devotee who had been convicted of being a confidence man. This devotee is now famous for
being an excellent ISKCON fundraiser. They talked about some of the stranger ISKCON
practices, including chewing the tissue that a guru blows his nose in, and drinking the water
a guru uses to rinse his mouth. Again, there was much laughter, and Greg contributed to
the humor by telling a story about Prabhupada demanding a special toilet seat. By this
point, Curt, who had intended to play a tape from the cult, “Students of Light,” had to give
up on this idea due to all the cutting up that was going on.
With the conversation remaining on a fairly humorous level, Ken talked about doing
sankirtan in the New York City subways, and the ways in which devotees tried to get around
the doctrine. He described how some devotees would hunt for thrown out food to be
brought back to the temple. One devotee (the one who had sold the book to Ken's mother)
went so far as to eat food off the floor of a subway train. Curt “And they call [non-Krishnas]
animals!” Curt‟s gibe met with much laughter. Ken seemed to be enjoying himself

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 57
immensely, and even commented on this. “I‟ll tell you, I'm having a better time now than I
ever did as a Krishna.” He then went on to relate how it always seemed that the devotees
most in demand for companionship (sankirtan, etc.) were the ones who were least
spiritually advanced. Sandy tried to answer the implied question. “That‟s because they were
the ones who were most human.” Curt and Ken discussed how Ken was able to maintain his
humor, rebelliousness, and his sensibility even while a devotee. In so doing, Curt paid Ken a
compliment: “That‟s probably why you are in as good shape as you are.” On his part,
however, Ken noted that it was difficult, that he always felt guilty.
Amidst a resurgence of laughter, there followed more discussion of the constant demand to
chant in order not to question, in order to avoid the “mental platform” in order to avoid
thinking. Ken then related another absurd ISKCON notion. He had read an explanation for
why there were so many bird droppings on Prabhupada's grave: The spiritual entities of the
birds were paying homage to their “spiritual master.” Ken laughed uproariously then, almost
sounding drunk. Were tears hidden in his laughter? Ken related between guffaws, “And the
devotees would try to [read the patterns of the droppings] as though they were reading tea
leaves, trying to get some esoteric meaning from them.” Curt replied, “that story is so
exemplary of [cult mentality) ...You think the guru is sooo spiritual: He can make profound
stuff out of bird shit” Ken laughed. “And I thought “wow”, I must be pretty stupid and not
spiritually advanced, because I couldn't figure out what was [so meaningful] ...I guess I
wasn't spiritually developed enough ...” Sandy and Greg followed Ken fairly closely, laughing
with him although not with the same emotional intensity. To me, it seemed as though Ken
had now totally opened up, and was being overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of what had
just happened (i.e., cutting his sika, etc.).
Questioning theology and authority. Most deprogrammers consider renunciation of the
cult leader to be the “real” test of whether or not a cultist has “snapped.” Ken clearly
seemed to have passed this test. When everyone had finished laughing, the talk because
subdued and serious as they discussed Prabhupada's first years in the U.S., and ISKCON's
disdain for marriage and family. They are part of maya. Deprogrammers and
deprogrammee then returned to debunking ISKCON theology. Ken and Sandy were now the
primary talkers. Much or most of the talking was by Ken. Sandy listened and commented,
and mostly seemed to mirror (empathize with) Ken. Brian reentered the conversation at this
point, by telling stories that debunked parapsychology. He reminded Ken: “Things that we
didn't understand 100 years ago we understand now ...most things have logical
explanations.” Ken talked about some of his experiences that he found difficult to explain. It
seemed like he wanted the deprogrammers to offer alternative/logical explanations. In
response, Sandy talked about some of the manipulations performed by his cult leader,
David Stone. He and Ken discussed the problems inherent when “God, the spokesman for
God, and the words the spokesman write ...are all seen as one and the same thing.” Brian
added stories about the manipulation tactics practiced by some evangelists. The
conversation continued to involve considerable self-disclosing. Ken recalled the conflict he
felt when he heard that Prabhupada had said anyone claiming to be God is a “dog, a rascal
and a deceiver.” This pronouncement contradicted a later statement that devotees should
accept Prabhupada as “good as God.” In confirmation, Curt read an interview with
Prabhupada in the Back to Godhead. The interviewer notes that Prabhupada has said he is
not a god, yet devotees seem to treat him like a god. Prabhupada answered, “yes, that is
their duty ...[the spiritual master] should be respected as much as God.” The interviewer
then questioned Prabhupada's personal wealth. Prabhupada replied that his wealth “teaches
the disciples how to treat the spiritual masters as good as God.” Ken seemed fascinated by
these passages, which appeared in official ISKCON publications, and were therefore
incontestably valid as official doctrine. Curt then explained that he had waited to show these
passages to Ken because they are normally saved for the time when a Krishna vehemently
denies that Prabhupada ever claimed to be like God. Fortunately, Ken was never that