Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 58
closed-minded. Ken related other contradictions in the doctrine he had noticed. The
conversation seemed to remain equally divided between deprogrammer and
deprogrammee.
It was getting late, and Curt was beginning to look tired. Ken, however, seemed wide
awake, and eager for more information. Together with Curt, Ken browsed at will through the
deprogrammers large loose leaf binder filled with ISKCON-related material. One by one, he
picked out other contradictions. One Krishna piece, for example, stated that ISKCON was a
“new religion,” unrelated to any present or past religion another piece reminded devotee to
be certain to present ISKCON as part of the Hindu religion, in order to further public
acceptance. As Ken continued to read, Curt began to have difficulty hiding his own
exhaustion, and in between yawns he warned Ken not to misinterpret his tiredness. He was
thrilled that Ken was thinking again, and was so thirsty for more information. He
complimented Ken for being so enthusiastic. “You have really been a joy. I mean that. It's
been a joy sitting here and talking with you.” Ken laughed, embarrassed. Curt gently
admonished him: “It's OK to take a compliment.” Curt then noted that most cults make
members feel guilty about real compliments, and he and Ken talked about the difference
between false and sincere compliments.
Returning to some of Curt‟s other material, the conversation moved toward broader issues
of obedience to authority (e.g., Milgram's experiments, and the Holocaust). Curt explained
that by discussing other totalistic movements Ken could get a framework “in which to fit
your experiences.” The next several days would be spent reviewing material on other
totalitarian movements. They talked about how Milgram‟s experiments taught humility
people think they will not obey, then they do. Ken related how, years ago, he wanted to go
on a pilgrimage and a friend asked him if he was going to become a Krishna. Ken replied,
“Hell no, what do you think I am, crazy?” Ken seemed to be expressing more and more of
his pre-cult memories and experiences, remembering what he thought of ISKCON prior to
becoming involved. Keeping in mind the time (past midnight), Curt concentrated on giving
Ken a “quick tour” through the loose leaf binder, so that he could read it himself, later. As
they skimmed through the material, Ken would ask about something he didn't understand
while in the Krishnas. Curt would then show him where in the loose leaf he could find some
material on that issue. The conversation still seemed to be about equally divided between
deprogrammer and deprogrammee, although Ken occasionally appeared to dominate the
conversation.
After about half an hour, Curt reminded Ken that “with all this information coming in, you
need to rest.” Ken nodded a cursory agreement, then digressed into talking about some of
the strange behaviors he had witnessed among gurus. Ken asked about the owners of the
house they were using. Curt told him that Daniel the Epsteins' son, was deprogrammed by
Curt the weekend before he was to be initiated. Ken wanted to know more, but Curt told
him he would have to check with Daniel to make sure he approved releasing any more
information. Changing the topic, Curt and Ken compared notes on some of the places they
have both visited. The conversation was casual and friendly, and Ken seemed to be
identifying with Curt. Turning his attention to one of the security men, Ken remarked.-
“You're pretty quiet there, Len. Not much to say. Just guarding the fortress, huh?” Len was
the least experienced member of Curt‟s team and with his jeans, boots, cowboy hat and
wrangler-style handlebar moustache, he came across as the least intellectual and
cosmopolitan of the men. Curt countered, “there‟s too many people sticking their two
cents'-worth in anyway.”
Ken and Risa. At this point, Ken's mother entered the room. Sandy had sneaked down to
invite her up. As she stood by the door, Ken and Curt talked about possibly stepping outside
tomorrow. Curt was clearly feeling more trusting of Ken now: “I'm starting to feel real
comfortable with the whole situation.” Ken asked his mother if she remembered when Ken
closed-minded. Ken related other contradictions in the doctrine he had noticed. The
conversation seemed to remain equally divided between deprogrammer and
deprogrammee.
It was getting late, and Curt was beginning to look tired. Ken, however, seemed wide
awake, and eager for more information. Together with Curt, Ken browsed at will through the
deprogrammers large loose leaf binder filled with ISKCON-related material. One by one, he
picked out other contradictions. One Krishna piece, for example, stated that ISKCON was a
“new religion,” unrelated to any present or past religion another piece reminded devotee to
be certain to present ISKCON as part of the Hindu religion, in order to further public
acceptance. As Ken continued to read, Curt began to have difficulty hiding his own
exhaustion, and in between yawns he warned Ken not to misinterpret his tiredness. He was
thrilled that Ken was thinking again, and was so thirsty for more information. He
complimented Ken for being so enthusiastic. “You have really been a joy. I mean that. It's
been a joy sitting here and talking with you.” Ken laughed, embarrassed. Curt gently
admonished him: “It's OK to take a compliment.” Curt then noted that most cults make
members feel guilty about real compliments, and he and Ken talked about the difference
between false and sincere compliments.
Returning to some of Curt‟s other material, the conversation moved toward broader issues
of obedience to authority (e.g., Milgram's experiments, and the Holocaust). Curt explained
that by discussing other totalistic movements Ken could get a framework “in which to fit
your experiences.” The next several days would be spent reviewing material on other
totalitarian movements. They talked about how Milgram‟s experiments taught humility
people think they will not obey, then they do. Ken related how, years ago, he wanted to go
on a pilgrimage and a friend asked him if he was going to become a Krishna. Ken replied,
“Hell no, what do you think I am, crazy?” Ken seemed to be expressing more and more of
his pre-cult memories and experiences, remembering what he thought of ISKCON prior to
becoming involved. Keeping in mind the time (past midnight), Curt concentrated on giving
Ken a “quick tour” through the loose leaf binder, so that he could read it himself, later. As
they skimmed through the material, Ken would ask about something he didn't understand
while in the Krishnas. Curt would then show him where in the loose leaf he could find some
material on that issue. The conversation still seemed to be about equally divided between
deprogrammer and deprogrammee, although Ken occasionally appeared to dominate the
conversation.
After about half an hour, Curt reminded Ken that “with all this information coming in, you
need to rest.” Ken nodded a cursory agreement, then digressed into talking about some of
the strange behaviors he had witnessed among gurus. Ken asked about the owners of the
house they were using. Curt told him that Daniel the Epsteins' son, was deprogrammed by
Curt the weekend before he was to be initiated. Ken wanted to know more, but Curt told
him he would have to check with Daniel to make sure he approved releasing any more
information. Changing the topic, Curt and Ken compared notes on some of the places they
have both visited. The conversation was casual and friendly, and Ken seemed to be
identifying with Curt. Turning his attention to one of the security men, Ken remarked.-
“You're pretty quiet there, Len. Not much to say. Just guarding the fortress, huh?” Len was
the least experienced member of Curt‟s team and with his jeans, boots, cowboy hat and
wrangler-style handlebar moustache, he came across as the least intellectual and
cosmopolitan of the men. Curt countered, “there‟s too many people sticking their two
cents'-worth in anyway.”
Ken and Risa. At this point, Ken's mother entered the room. Sandy had sneaked down to
invite her up. As she stood by the door, Ken and Curt talked about possibly stepping outside
tomorrow. Curt was clearly feeling more trusting of Ken now: “I'm starting to feel real
comfortable with the whole situation.” Ken asked his mother if she remembered when Ken
