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closed-minded. Ken related other contradictions in the doctrine he had noticed. The
conversation seemed to remain equally divided between deprogrammer and
deprogrammee.
It was getting late, and Curt was beginning to look tired. Ken, however, seemed wide
awake, and eager for more information. Together with Curt, Ken browsed at will through the
deprogrammers large loose leaf binder filled with ISKCON-related material. One by one, he
picked out other contradictions. One Krishna piece, for example, stated that ISKCON was a
“new religion,” unrelated to any present or past religion another piece reminded devotee to
be certain to present ISKCON as part of the Hindu religion, in order to further public
acceptance. As Ken continued to read, Curt began to have difficulty hiding his own
exhaustion, and in between yawns he warned Ken not to misinterpret his tiredness. He was
thrilled that Ken was thinking again, and was so thirsty for more information. He
complimented Ken for being so enthusiastic. “You have really been a joy. I mean that. It's
been a joy sitting here and talking with you.” Ken laughed, embarrassed. Curt gently
admonished him: “It's OK to take a compliment.” Curt then noted that most cults make
members feel guilty about real compliments, and he and Ken talked about the difference
between false and sincere compliments.
Returning to some of Curt‟s other material, the conversation moved toward broader issues
of obedience to authority (e.g., Milgram's experiments, and the Holocaust). Curt explained
that by discussing other totalistic movements Ken could get a framework “in which to fit
your experiences.” The next several days would be spent reviewing material on other
totalitarian movements. They talked about how Milgram‟s experiments taught humility
people think they will not obey, then they do. Ken related how, years ago, he wanted to go
on a pilgrimage and a friend asked him if he was going to become a Krishna. Ken replied,
“Hell no, what do you think I am, crazy?” Ken seemed to be expressing more and more of
his pre-cult memories and experiences, remembering what he thought of ISKCON prior to
becoming involved. Keeping in mind the time (past midnight), Curt concentrated on giving
Ken a “quick tour” through the loose leaf binder, so that he could read it himself, later. As
they skimmed through the material, Ken would ask about something he didn't understand
while in the Krishnas. Curt would then show him where in the loose leaf he could find some
material on that issue. The conversation still seemed to be about equally divided between
deprogrammer and deprogrammee, although Ken occasionally appeared to dominate the
conversation.
After about half an hour, Curt reminded Ken that “with all this information coming in, you
need to rest.” Ken nodded a cursory agreement, then digressed into talking about some of
the strange behaviors he had witnessed among gurus. Ken asked about the owners of the
house they were using. Curt told him that Daniel the Epsteins' son, was deprogrammed by
Curt the weekend before he was to be initiated. Ken wanted to know more, but Curt told
him he would have to check with Daniel to make sure he approved releasing any more
information. Changing the topic, Curt and Ken compared notes on some of the places they
have both visited. The conversation was casual and friendly, and Ken seemed to be
identifying with Curt. Turning his attention to one of the security men, Ken remarked.-
“You're pretty quiet there, Len. Not much to say. Just guarding the fortress, huh?” Len was
the least experienced member of Curt‟s team and with his jeans, boots, cowboy hat and
wrangler-style handlebar moustache, he came across as the least intellectual and
cosmopolitan of the men. Curt countered, “there‟s too many people sticking their two
cents'-worth in anyway.”
Ken and Risa. At this point, Ken's mother entered the room. Sandy had sneaked down to
invite her up. As she stood by the door, Ken and Curt talked about possibly stepping outside
tomorrow. Curt was clearly feeling more trusting of Ken now: “I'm starting to feel real
comfortable with the whole situation.” Ken asked his mother if she remembered when Ken

Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 59
brought that devotee home and she bought the book. He asked her what her impression of
him was, and she confirmed his own once-suppressed belief that this guy was “wacko” and
“wigged out.” He was the boy who had eaten off the floor of the subway. Ken often seemed
to need to hear his new-found reality confirmed in this manner. Ken talked with his mother
for a while, expressing some of his long-dormant doubts. He told heir “I'm convinced [I
should leave], you know ...I kind of convinced myself.” Ken noted then that he had been in
conflict, that in part he had wanted to leave for some time, “but I couldn't do it” [until now].
Risa Butler replied that she would look forward to seeing her son's hair grow back.
As mother and son became reacquainted, Curt reached over and, perhaps out of respect for
the intimate quality of ft reunion, turned off my tape recorder. Ken became silent and then
tearful as he thanked his mother for having initiated the deprogramming. He talked about
being deceived, about feeling guilty, and he apologized profusely. Risa hugged Ken, and
accepted his comments and apologies with tears in her eyes as well. Regaining a sense of
my presence during this intimate scene, I quietly made my exit. Back downstairs in the den,
I busied myself cataloging tapes and writing notes. It was just after 1:00 am. I felt
exhausted and emotionally drained. Curt and Sandy discussed plans to head for a nearby
bar “to blow off a little.” Shortly thereafter, Risa came back downstairs. Ken had finally
decided to go to sleep. Risa looked tired, but extremely happy.
The memory of how uncomfortable my previous night‟s sleep had been was rekindled by my
second attempt at sleep in the Epsteins' basement, and at about 3:00 a.m., I got up and
drove to my house. I slept the rest of the night, dreamless and spent, at home.
The Third Day: Morning
I arrived back at the Epstein house shortly after 8:30 a.m. It took some time for Len to
open the door. He was the only deprogramming team member awake. The Epsteins were in
the kitchen, finishing breakfast. We exchanged brief words. They were aware of the
“breakthrough” last night, although they did not know the details. Len went back upstairs to
his “post.” I offered to make some coffee and bring it up to him.
With everyone asleep, there was little for me to do. I took my coffee into the den, and
reviewed and re-reviewed my notes. At around 9:30 a.m., Risa came upstairs. I offered her
some coffee, and we talked as she cleaned up from the day before. Her excitement had
almost kept her from sleeping last night. Just after 10:00 a.m., Len came downstairs to
report that Ken was awake, and had gone into the bathroom to shower and shave. He had
slept about seven and a half hours (the longest in years). Risa began cooking eggs for
brunch. Next, Curt came downstairs, still looking somewhat unrested I found out later that
he and Sandy had stayed out past 3:00 am. Curt and Risa began talking about the progress
Ken had made, and what topics would be covered over the next few days. Risa expressed
her concern that Ken might be “faking it,” although her worry did not seem genuine. Curt
told her he was certain that Ken was not “puttin' me on.”
Ken, Greg, and Brian. At about 10:45, Ken reappeared, showered and shaved and looking
well-rested and clean. He joined Curt and his mother in the kitchen, and Curt and Risa
began to eat brunch. Ken declined brunch, saying he was not yet hungry. Ken was still very
excited about the connections he was making, and he began to casually recount with
amazement and relish, some detailed but now absurd aspects of ISKCON doctrine. I
remained in the den, not willing to intrude on their conversation just yet, but I could hear
Ken pointing out contradictions to Risa. In the background, I could hear typical kitchen
noises: water running, silverware clinking, and dishes were being washed as Risa cleaned
up from brunch. At 11:21 am., Greg arrived. Ken still had not eaten.
Rather than eat, Ken began to recount to Greg some additional contradictions he found in
the theology. I discovered that he had remained up until 2:30 a.m., studying Curt's notes