Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1989, Page 40
resulted in a prolonged period of continued self-disclosure from both Ken and Curt. Curt
continued to explain the limitations of the deprogrammers, especially as they are influenced
by a cultist who is lying. Curt was confronting the issue of honesty head on. By lying, Ken
was first and foremost being dishonest with himself, and being dishonest with the
deprogrammers was not the main point: “We can't deprogram you, you do that yourself, all
we can do is provide you with some reference points and support.. You have to be honest
with yourself.' Ken recalled to Curt that when Krishnas get caught stealing or lying, they call
it religious persecution. Curt continued to plead his case for honesty. He and Ken talked
about how difficult it is to leave on one's own. It‟s done, Curt noted, but it‟s tough because
the best way to sort through everything is to express it, to test it out against what other
people say. They then discussed a lawsuit against ISKCON in California, and how ISKCON
shifted assets out of that state and cried poverty in order to avoid paying the $32 million
judgment against them. They discussed the power struggles between various gurus. Curt
asked Ken to point out one absolute leader in history who had had absolute power and was
not corrupted by it. Ken, of course, could not. They then talked about Ted Patrick, his good
and his bad points. Curt contrasted Patrick's style with his own: “He [Patrick] worked on
people's emotions ...he didn't approach it from an informational standpoint [as does Curt].”
Returning to the power struggles within ISKCON, Curt commented on how the rivalries
between gurus got started, how when Prabhupada appointed these .pure disciples' they had
trouble getting respect from fellow gurus, because their fellow gurus all knew about each
others' sins and weaknesses (e.g., using coffee and other intoxicants, using profanity, etc.).
Ken initially defended the strange Krishna notion that as one becomes spiritually “purer,
one is able to indulge in more “sins” because the sin cannot touch and undo the pure
devotee. “Some things the disciples can't do (the gurus can],” he said. Curt‟s response was
nonchalant. “Well, yeah, there's a double-standard. Ken: “Yeah, I kind of picked up on that,
too.” Ken then talked about some of the homosexual improprieties he had witnessed, which
he spontaneously interpreted as running away from sexual identity issues.
Request to stop chanting: The first day ends. Curt, Brian, and Ken talked for almost two
hours more, reviewing some of what had been said already, and going over more material
from Curt's loose-leaf book. At about 1:39 a.m., the need for sleep seemed too strong to
deny any longer, and the deprogrammers stated they would need to go to bed. Before
leaving, Curt made his first direct suggestion to Ken. “I wanted to suggest something, don't
expect you to necessarily go along with it, but why don't you give no chanting [in the
morning) a shot. I‟ll give you a reason in the morning why. While you're here, give it a
shot.” Curt then reminded Ken of Mary's statements that chanting “shuts down the primary
and opens up the secondary thought processes.” Ken said he would consider it.
It seemed like Ken could continue forever. When he finally announced his own intention to
go to sleep, I went back downstairs. Risa was still up, dressed in a nightgown and robe.
Apparently, she was going to sleep over. I had not even thought about where I would sleep,
and I did not bring a change of clothes. I decided, however, to sleep over as well. Risa and I
went downstairs into the basement. The basement was large, consisting of three open
areas that, together, constituted a “U” shape. It was filled with old furniture, games (e.g.,
ping-pong), posters and old stereo equipment. To the right a mattress and beddings had
been laid out this was where Risa slept. Around the bend to the left were an old chair, two
inexpensive couches, a coffee table and a large trunk all the way to the left. Behind this
trunk was a box spring with a mattress and some beddings on it. I decided to try the box
spring out. The two couches would later serve as bedding for one or the other security men.
I went over and talked to Risa a bit. She was worried and hopeful at the same time, and
she shared these feelings. She told me she did not know how she would be able to get to
sleep she felt very agitated. I could sense how strongly she felt about the deprogramming,
resulted in a prolonged period of continued self-disclosure from both Ken and Curt. Curt
continued to explain the limitations of the deprogrammers, especially as they are influenced
by a cultist who is lying. Curt was confronting the issue of honesty head on. By lying, Ken
was first and foremost being dishonest with himself, and being dishonest with the
deprogrammers was not the main point: “We can't deprogram you, you do that yourself, all
we can do is provide you with some reference points and support.. You have to be honest
with yourself.' Ken recalled to Curt that when Krishnas get caught stealing or lying, they call
it religious persecution. Curt continued to plead his case for honesty. He and Ken talked
about how difficult it is to leave on one's own. It‟s done, Curt noted, but it‟s tough because
the best way to sort through everything is to express it, to test it out against what other
people say. They then discussed a lawsuit against ISKCON in California, and how ISKCON
shifted assets out of that state and cried poverty in order to avoid paying the $32 million
judgment against them. They discussed the power struggles between various gurus. Curt
asked Ken to point out one absolute leader in history who had had absolute power and was
not corrupted by it. Ken, of course, could not. They then talked about Ted Patrick, his good
and his bad points. Curt contrasted Patrick's style with his own: “He [Patrick] worked on
people's emotions ...he didn't approach it from an informational standpoint [as does Curt].”
Returning to the power struggles within ISKCON, Curt commented on how the rivalries
between gurus got started, how when Prabhupada appointed these .pure disciples' they had
trouble getting respect from fellow gurus, because their fellow gurus all knew about each
others' sins and weaknesses (e.g., using coffee and other intoxicants, using profanity, etc.).
Ken initially defended the strange Krishna notion that as one becomes spiritually “purer,
one is able to indulge in more “sins” because the sin cannot touch and undo the pure
devotee. “Some things the disciples can't do (the gurus can],” he said. Curt‟s response was
nonchalant. “Well, yeah, there's a double-standard. Ken: “Yeah, I kind of picked up on that,
too.” Ken then talked about some of the homosexual improprieties he had witnessed, which
he spontaneously interpreted as running away from sexual identity issues.
Request to stop chanting: The first day ends. Curt, Brian, and Ken talked for almost two
hours more, reviewing some of what had been said already, and going over more material
from Curt's loose-leaf book. At about 1:39 a.m., the need for sleep seemed too strong to
deny any longer, and the deprogrammers stated they would need to go to bed. Before
leaving, Curt made his first direct suggestion to Ken. “I wanted to suggest something, don't
expect you to necessarily go along with it, but why don't you give no chanting [in the
morning) a shot. I‟ll give you a reason in the morning why. While you're here, give it a
shot.” Curt then reminded Ken of Mary's statements that chanting “shuts down the primary
and opens up the secondary thought processes.” Ken said he would consider it.
It seemed like Ken could continue forever. When he finally announced his own intention to
go to sleep, I went back downstairs. Risa was still up, dressed in a nightgown and robe.
Apparently, she was going to sleep over. I had not even thought about where I would sleep,
and I did not bring a change of clothes. I decided, however, to sleep over as well. Risa and I
went downstairs into the basement. The basement was large, consisting of three open
areas that, together, constituted a “U” shape. It was filled with old furniture, games (e.g.,
ping-pong), posters and old stereo equipment. To the right a mattress and beddings had
been laid out this was where Risa slept. Around the bend to the left were an old chair, two
inexpensive couches, a coffee table and a large trunk all the way to the left. Behind this
trunk was a box spring with a mattress and some beddings on it. I decided to try the box
spring out. The two couches would later serve as bedding for one or the other security men.
I went over and talked to Risa a bit. She was worried and hopeful at the same time, and
she shared these feelings. She told me she did not know how she would be able to get to
sleep she felt very agitated. I could sense how strongly she felt about the deprogramming,
